some rules ideas to generate a new impulse in the scene

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Thorsten the Traveller
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some rules ideas to generate a new impulse in the scene

Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:07 pm

At D/A/CH masters, Heiner suggested a rulechange to me that would create a new impulse in deck building in tournaments, and would at the same time make any need to balance the Balrog alignment obsolete.

His proposal: characters are no longer worth marshalling points. As a result, the minimum amount of MP's needed to call the council will be lowered to 15.

rationale: squatter decks that depend heavily on character mp's will be decreased in power, and other more active mp gathering decks will come to the forefront (again).

my opinion: it is a drastic change in the game that runs the risk of alienating some people, but it is certainly worth a try (and I suggested as much to Wolfgang for next Lure).
Personally I never quite understood why characters are worth mp's anyway, as you need not perform any actions (normally) to play them, so basically you're just cashing in your amount of GI/DI. But, it is of course a basic ICE design, and there is no direct or real problem we'd be solving...


We also discussed an intermediate solution: any player's maximum character mp amount will be 5. As a result, amount of MP's needed to call the council will be lowered to 20.

This way you still get some reward for your characters (and opponent for killing them), but it levels the playing field more between alignments.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on these ideas.
cheers
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.

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Bandobras Took
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Re: some rules ideas to generate a new impulse in the scene

Post by Bandobras Took » Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:32 pm

Even with lowered council requirements, my first hunch is that would screw at least one Fallen Wizard.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly.

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Re: some rules ideas to generate a new impulse in the scene

Post by Sauron » Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:18 pm

Are you going to compensate by increasing the value of minion items, factions, etc? In general minion stuff is worth less than hero stuff, but minions tend to make it up character points.

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Re: some rules ideas to generate a new impulse in the scene

Post by marcos » Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:11 am

i agree with Brian

miguel
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Re: some rules ideas to generate a new impulse in the scene

Post by miguel » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:33 am

This isn't really a new idea, it's been mentioned in the LORE-rules. However, I think it would only work as such in single alignment games, general opponent would probably need additional tweaking (I'm not a fan).

Here's another idea, what if Balrog players didn't receive the +5 unused general influence? It makes sense thematically (Balrog isn't working for the Eye that never sleeps) and should slow down the Hog decks a bit.

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Re: some rules ideas to generate a new impulse in the scene

Post by Beornd » Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:52 pm

I´m feeling really confused for some time past. in regular intervalls i find new topics with new ideas to activate our game. All speak about new ideas of new cardtexts, rulechanges and really necessary adaptions. but since i followed this discussions (now i play 10 years) nothing was innovated. or did i miss anything :?: and i don´t mean the special formats. Sorry my friends about my objection but that all is toothless. i believe with that speed i will read another hundrets of post without one decision and must hear on the other side that many players are not willing to play against cheeze decks. :?

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Re: some rules ideas to generate a new impulse in the scene

Post by Sauron » Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:16 pm

Beornd wrote:I´m feeling really confused for some time past. in regular intervalls i find new topics with new ideas to activate our game. All speak about new ideas of new cardtexts, rulechanges and really necessary adaptions. but since i followed this discussions (now i play 10 years) nothing was innovated. or did i miss anything :?: and i don´t mean the special formats. Sorry my friends about my objection but that all is toothless. i believe with that speed i will read another hundrets of post without one decision and must hear on the other side that many players are not willing to play against cheeze decks. :?
Nothing against you Beornd this is just my personal opinion here and is in no way directed toward you in any shape or form.

I always read this "cheeze decks". Who gets to define what Cheeze is? Is corruption Cheeze because it's effective? Is squatting Cheeze because it's effective? Is Minion cheeze because of the GI Bonus? Is Environment Cheeze?

Just because people face decks that can't handle what some people call "Cheeze" doesn't make the decks Cheeze. I think people cop out and use the term Cheeze to label things they can't deal with in this game. Instead of figuring out how to handle it or building better decks, they just label it as cheeze and unfair.

This game has many different ways to play it, squatting, moving, underdeeps, etc. I like that the game is so versatile. There is a counter to everything in this game, figure it out and kick ass with it. I personally just came up with an idea that no one has thought of that I know, just last week. I need to speak with Mikko about it to see if it actually works they way I think it does.

Stop labeling things cheeze and figure out how to beat em, make yourself a better ME player in the process. Again this is just my 2 cents.

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Re: some rules ideas to generate a new impulse in the scene

Post by miguel » Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:03 am

I pretty much agree with everything Brian wrote. I think there is just so much people could consider cheeze that there's no simple way for us to get rid of it all, nor should we because one reason MeCCG is still going is its versatility (for example, you can use squatting in a cheezy, but also in a non-cheezy way). I absolutely agree with Bernd that the games should be fun and enjoyable to all players, but maybe it's more the players' responsibility to not play cheezy decks and that way avoid negative player experiences? IMO this applies especially for the competitive top level players, they need to step up and show the way instead of exploiting every trick available.

There is cheeze and then there's broken (Carambor-machine), I think broken needs to be dealt with by CoE, cheeze (at least for the most part) should be dealt with by the players.

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Re: some rules ideas to generate a new impulse in the scene

Post by Vastor Peredhil » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:06 am

Hi all,

I actually find myself agreeing with Brian, but more so with Miiko ;)
we fix the broken stuff and adjust some rules clarifactions with allow for cheeze tricks and then we do much better . . .

High level players should stop teaching cheeze and try high risk competitive decks, as this is what makes meccg a great game, not the cheeze squatting, the Free Peoples did not win because of a cheezy squatting deck, but an full company ring dunk with no influence to spare ;)

so stop playing no brainer hazards like Rivers & Call of Homes & Seized by terrror and create some fun hazard decks, ...
stop adding 12 cancelers straight to the deck if you have big guys and start fighting something ;)

this would be more heroic and makes up for enjoyable games, of course with these decks you fail once in a while in high competiion enviroment so what, it is about great games, not about who bores his opponent more to death faster . . .

so high level players have to pick up their game to a more enjoyable level, and then later theach mediocre cheeze, not full cheez 1st and every deck ;)

I believe the with DC ,VC and UEPs we have new interesting possibilities, so I would love to make these more used by more players . . .

eg. play all non GO events at lure with all UEPs in action (as we do for DC & VC anyhow) this way the cheeze master can cheeze all they want in the most competitive GO event we have each year (normally it has better and more players than Worlds or any Nats) and all others can get used to relaxed true ME -style games in all, sealed cool play and such forth events, this way the 12 UEPs become know much more and better and the step between non-GO events and DC & VC events will not be as big a step.

Also all of the high level players should take more responsibility for all kind of stuff if life permits it (but I say most times it does) help us on organizing, run for the council, help us on GCCG (with releasing stuff whihc others have build) and so forth, that would take much of Eric's & my plate since we are doing a lot lately (and I am not thinking of Wolfgang & Bernd, Pawel (giving you some cresdit here) who organized amazing events already this year)

Also judges program should be revived again, we need more high level judges and they most be known to more players

Another thing I like to push is the correct translations of all sets and the creation of theses sets , MEWH, MEBA, PROMOS using MSE this has already started, but for example in the German communtiy there seems no one willing or wanting to have German translations of these cards . . . (or even only as tranlation using the errata function in GCCG)

Also we are doing a wonderful think adding errata to SVN GCCG for all sets, still the vote to do it on all cards in standart GCCG is still limited (offical ICE errata that is), that would also prevent false plays and negative experiances for new (and some old returning players)

sorry guys for the long post, but there was so much I think could de dealt with better in such a small but active community

mfg Nicolai aka Vastor

Beornd
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Re: some rules ideas to generate a new impulse in the scene

Post by Beornd » Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:51 am

Sauron wrote:
Beornd wrote:I´m feeling really confused for some time past. in regular intervalls i find new topics with new ideas to activate our game. All speak about new ideas of new cardtexts, rulechanges and really necessary adaptions. but since i followed this discussions (now i play 10 years) nothing was innovated. or did i miss anything :?: and i don´t mean the special formats. Sorry my friends about my objection but that all is toothless. i believe with that speed i will read another hundrets of post without one decision and must hear on the other side that many players are not willing to play against cheeze decks. :?
Nothing against you Beornd this is just my personal opinion here and is in no way directed toward you in any shape or form.

I always read this "cheeze decks". Who gets to define what Cheeze is? Is corruption Cheeze because it's effective? Is squatting Cheeze because it's effective? Is Minion cheeze because of the GI Bonus? Is Environment Cheeze?

Just because people face decks that can't handle what some people call "Cheeze" doesn't make the decks Cheeze. I think people cop out and use the term Cheeze to label things they can't deal with in this game. Instead of figuring out how to handle it or building better decks, they just label it as cheeze and unfair.

This game has many different ways to play it, squatting, moving, underdeeps, etc. I like that the game is so versatile. There is a counter to everything in this game, figure it out and kick ass with it. I personally just came up with an idea that no one has thought of that I know, just last week. I need to speak with Mikko about it to see if it actually works they way I think it does.

Stop labeling things cheeze and figure out how to beat em, make yourself a better ME player in the process. Again this is just my 2 cents.
Sry Brian either my english is so bad or you are not willing to understand my point. i´m not the man, who don´t accept the ice rules/netrep decisions or complains off cheeze stuff. i´m tiered to follow the discussions about changes. Ok perhaps is Carambor an exception but versus any "cheeze" decks there are possibilities. Beside that in Munich nobody was worried about the 2-Mind balrog rule and it was for all still the same game and we had the same fun.

The only point i have heart at the forefield of organizing the tournament, few players were not ready to play GO, because they was bored to see the same decks (cheeze decks for their opinion) all the time.

So my opinion if Netrep want to change a cardtext or a rule do that and don´t discuss for many years how it not works.

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Re: some rules ideas to generate a new impulse in the scene

Post by Sauron » Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:52 pm

Beornd wrote:
Sauron wrote:
Beornd wrote:I´m feeling really confused for some time past. in regular intervalls i find new topics with new ideas to activate our game. All speak about new ideas of new cardtexts, rulechanges and really necessary adaptions. but since i followed this discussions (now i play 10 years) nothing was innovated. or did i miss anything :?: and i don´t mean the special formats. Sorry my friends about my objection but that all is toothless. i believe with that speed i will read another hundrets of post without one decision and must hear on the other side that many players are not willing to play against cheeze decks. :?
Nothing against you Beornd this is just my personal opinion here and is in no way directed toward you in any shape or form.

I always read this "cheeze decks". Who gets to define what Cheeze is? Is corruption Cheeze because it's effective? Is squatting Cheeze because it's effective? Is Minion cheeze because of the GI Bonus? Is Environment Cheeze?

Just because people face decks that can't handle what some people call "Cheeze" doesn't make the decks Cheeze. I think people cop out and use the term Cheeze to label things they can't deal with in this game. Instead of figuring out how to handle it or building better decks, they just label it as cheeze and unfair.

This game has many different ways to play it, squatting, moving, underdeeps, etc. I like that the game is so versatile. There is a counter to everything in this game, figure it out and kick ass with it. I personally just came up with an idea that no one has thought of that I know, just last week. I need to speak with Mikko about it to see if it actually works they way I think it does.

Stop labeling things cheeze and figure out how to beat em, make yourself a better ME player in the process. Again this is just my 2 cents.
Sry Brian either my english is so bad or you are not willing to understand my point. i´m not the man, who don´t accept the ice rules/netrep decisions or complains off cheeze stuff. i´m tiered to follow the discussions about changes. Ok perhaps is Carambor an exception but versus any "cheeze" decks there are possibilities. Beside that in Munich nobody was worried about the 2-Mind balrog rule and it was for all still the same game and we had the same fun.

The only point i have heart at the forefield of organizing the tournament, few players were not ready to play GO, because they was bored to see the same decks (cheeze decks for their opinion) all the time.

So my opinion if Netrep want to change a cardtext or a rule do that and don´t discuss for many years how it not works.
Again my previous comments were not directed at you, but let me try to understand what you're tryign to say.

It seems you're not really complaining about "cheeze" but how long changes take or how discussions about changes always happen but no changes actually happen? Is that correct?

If that's the case it's because of how the CoE + NetRep are structured. NetRep is not to create new rules, but to interpert the rules as written based on the rule set we have.

Any rule changes would have to come from the CoE and then be ratified by the community. Perhaps an amendment to the charter should be made to enable the CoE to change rules without a player base vote? There's pros and cons to that.

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Re: some rules ideas to generate a new impulse in the scene

Post by Sauron » Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:56 pm

miguel wrote:I pretty much agree with everything Brian wrote. I think there is just so much people could consider cheeze that there's no simple way for us to get rid of it all, nor should we because one reason MeCCG is still going is its versatility (for example, you can use squatting in a cheezy, but also in a non-cheezy way). I absolutely agree with Bernd that the games should be fun and enjoyable to all players, but maybe it's more the players' responsibility to not play cheezy decks and that way avoid negative player experiences? IMO this applies especially for the competitive top level players, they need to step up and show the way instead of exploiting every trick available.

There is cheeze and then there's broken (Carambor-machine), I think broken needs to be dealt with by CoE, cheeze (at least for the most part) should be dealt with by the players.
I whole heartly agree broken needs to be fixed. The problem with players picking "non cheezy" decks is what is considered non-cheezy? So are we reduced to a basic 1-2 company setup that moves every turn and gets something with hazards that do not consisit of the following: environment, corruption, rivers, skin changers, etc?

The problem is 1 man's cheeze is another man's normal.

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Re: some rules ideas to generate a new impulse in the scene

Post by marcos » Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:03 pm

The problem is 1 man's cheeze is another man's normal.
couldn't agree more

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Re: some rules ideas to generate a new impulse in the scene

Post by miguel » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:35 pm

Sauron wrote:The problem with players picking "non cheezy" decks is what is considered non-cheezy? So are we reduced to a basic 1-2 company setup that moves every turn and gets something with hazards that do not consisit of the following: environment, corruption, rivers, skin changers, etc?
Since you quoted me I will answer, even though the idea above might be more along the lines of what Niico had in mind. :wink:

I don't consider decks that do tons of stuff and are complex to be a bad thing. On the contrary, those are the kinds of decks I would hope to see from the more experienced players. Decks like that can be very good and tough to beat, but they are also fun. The so called solitaire decks can be complex and very good, but they are also repetitive and boring, resulting in a negative playing experience.

The majority of MeCCG players today are very casual and non-competitive, and IMO the top level players should keep that in mind. I guess it comes down to whether you play just to beat your opponent, or to enjoy the game with your opponent. :D

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Re: some rules ideas to generate a new impulse in the scene

Post by Bandobras Took » Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:04 pm

My definition of cheeze is simple: if there is absolutely no counter in a standard tournament setting, it is cheeze.

That short-lists it to a handful of cards, and of those, most of them simply need to be re-interpreted by the NetRep in order to be dampened in utility. ;)

Regarding changes not happening: in May, I proposed that standard tournament become 3-deck. Has anybody tried this yet? :)
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly.

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