Erratum Proposal: Blind/Ire and Ring Tests

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Bandobras Took
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Erratum Proposal: Blind/Ire and Ring Tests

Post by Bandobras Took » Mon Nov 22, 2010 7:37 pm

To preface this, I'll start with my Round One GCCG Tournament report:
Round one vs marcos:

Some CvCC he tried on me backfired on him, slowing him down enough that I had the One in hand and a Ring at Isengard on the last turn. Two Wizard's Tests in hand.

Blind To The West x 2.

Auto lose.
Proposed Erratum: Blind to the West and Ire of the East may not be played on Ring Tests.

Gameplay/Balance Reasons for the change: I believe that these cards make FW Dunk impossible in a tournament setting. I chose to run my dunk deck in the GCCG Tournament to demonstrate the point -- against the tournament-winning Balrog deck, I had an outside chance (11 or 12 on the ring test). I could easily still have lost on the rolls (and indeed would have, if the rolls after losing were any demonstration), but the chance was still open -- without Blind. Blind made it impossible to get the One Ring out in the organization phase. This erratum is needed to make One Ring victories possible for a Fallen Wizard -- not necessarily feasible, but at least possible.

There is a potential balance problem in that this would boost Rings-for-Points, but I feel that to be minor -- A Rings-for-Points deck is fairly bulky and slow, so essentially carries its own risk in a tournament setting.

If you vote against this one, please prove your point by FW Dunking in a tournament setting wherein your opponent cancels your ring tests without a single thing you can do to counter it within the time frame.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Re: Erratum Proposal: Blind/Ire and Ring Tests

Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:06 am

Imo, these cards should not be played outside m/h phase at all. The effect on a dunk-deck can indeed be devastating, but it's equally overpowered in many other circumstances. I've seen Worlds finals games been decided on it. Imo ICE really frecked up with these cards (like they did with Great Shadow Balrog).

So I'd support this erratum, but not wholeheartedly for reasons of it being rather narrow. I think it's no good designing errata for a tournament purpose only.
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Re: Erratum Proposal: Blind/Ire and Ring Tests

Post by Bandobras Took » Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:48 pm

One of the main purposes of the CoE is to be responsible for the tournament scene, however. Since casual games on GCCG following tournament conventions, there is a wide enough scope for me. I'm glad for a positive vote. :)
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Re: Erratum Proposal: Blind/Ire and Ring Tests

Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:42 pm

Sure, but I meant that errata should be taken on basis of structural considerations (Ire/Blind are "broken"), not importance for meta-game (allow more FW ringdecks). Hence another type of erratum might be better, like: can't play outside m/h phase anymore. Imo that concept is too weird for a hazard, it is reserved for Twilight, and as such it's an anomaly and nuisance (to me).
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Re: Erratum Proposal: Blind/Ire and Ring Tests

Post by Frodo » Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:40 am

I'm interested in supporting Thorsten's proposal, since if we're going to erratta a card, it would be nice to "fix" other imbalances with it as well.

However, again, I'm stymied by a lack of understanding of games where these hazards have been all-deciding. Despite my experience, I just can't remember how "broken" this card has been when played during the organization phase. So I'd like to hear about more cases/complaints where a desire for this kind of erratta has been asked.

Frodo

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Re: Erratum Proposal: Blind/Ire and Ring Tests

Post by Bandobras Took » Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:54 pm

That's the thing -- Blind/Ire might decide a game, but there are any number of cards that can decide a game. I've seen Dark Tryst decide a game.

The only case I can think of where Blind/Ire are auto-lose is FW Dunk, simply because your opponent can see what your doing and simply hold the hazards. It guarantees at least one turn of delay and possibly two, which is just too much for dunk in competitive settings. That's the only case where I see it as too powerful rather than just extremely strong, which is why my proposal was limited to that.

And since I'm the only one I'm aware of who tries FW Dunk on a consistent basis, the only comments about it you're going to see are probably going to be from . . . me. :)
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Re: Erratum Proposal: Blind/Ire and Ring Tests

Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:37 pm

Blind to the West:
Targets and cancels one hero short-event played by a Fallen-wizard earlier in the same chain of effects. This card can be played at any time and does not count against the hazard limit.
What the sentence "earlier in the same chain of effects" seems to suggest to me, is that its original intention was to play it only when opponent plays a resource in response to/countering a hazard effect. That would greatly reduce the use of Blind/Ire of course.

But as it stands now, anything opponent does involving a short event (on whichever company) can potentially be thwarted by Ire/Blind it seems. That flexibility and the absense of decissions involving timing makes it very strong. If played last turn cq. during site phase it can be game deciding.

Examples: playing helpers to make an influence attempt, or even playing Marvels/Voices to remove a Foolish played on guard...
Playing a corruption helper at the Council? I suppose, at any time means literally at any time.
Heck, it can also be played as a resource? i.e. if opponent FW cancels my CvCC or influence attempt (e.g. Wizard's Laughter), I counter that with Blind/Ire I suppose.

Like Ben says, many cards can be game deciding, but the concept of playing a hazard at just any time is anomalous to the game, and I don't see why it should be justified especially versus FW, as if that alignment is so powerful.
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Re: Erratum Proposal: Blind/Ire and Ring Tests

Post by Bandobras Took » Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:20 pm

There's still the outside chance of an influence check succeeding. Blind can't stop an influence check, it can just stop a bonus.

What blind/ire can stop is a Ring Test. You can't even try to test a ring. That's the key difference that I see.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Re: Erratum Proposal: Blind/Ire and Ring Tests

Post by Shapeshifter » Tue Mar 01, 2011 6:43 pm

I understand that you are annoyed by these cards. They can be extremely strong in some cases. On the one hand I have seen many cases when Blind canceled a Marvels Told played on Heart Grown Cold in last turn. This decided the game. On the other hand these cards are sometimes among the very few that can really stop a well constructed FW deck (think about FW Pallando Haven Squatter where one of the few chances to win against is canceling the Longbottom Leaves).

Coming back to ring tests. I understand that a well timed Blind makes your Wizard's Tests almost impossible. There are other ways for a FW to test a ring, though. Test of Fire and Black Rain cannot be canceled by Blind and last but not least Gandalf's ability to test for a ring cannot be canceled at all by these cards.

To sum it up: I think that these cards, especially Blind, can be very annoying to FW dunk decks and lower your chances to get The One out. Still they don't make dunking for a FW impossible. It SHOULD be very hard for FWs to win with The One Ring as it should be for minions.

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Re: Erratum Proposal: Blind/Ire and Ring Tests

Post by Bandobras Took » Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:06 am

Shapeshifter wrote:Coming back to ring tests. I understand that a well timed Blind makes your Wizard's Tests almost impossible. There are other ways for a FW to test a ring, though. Test of Fire and Black Rain cannot be canceled by Blind and last but not least Gandalf's ability to test for a ring cannot be canceled at all by these cards.
That's irrelevant; they can be canceled by Ire, leaving you in the exact same situation for the exact same reason. Never mind Black Rain being a one-shot deal on its own; in a tournament setting, the player just plays his characters on guard.
Still they don't make dunking for a FW impossible. It SHOULD be very hard for FWs to win with The One Ring as it should be for minions.

As I said in my original post, back this up with proof. I actually tried a dunk deck in a tournament setting with a deck that has a good shot at dunking in the absence of Blind/Ire. Please post a deck list and game report where you have FW Dunked in a tournament setting despite Blind/Ire canceling your ring tests.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Re: Erratum Proposal: Blind/Ire and Ring Tests

Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:42 pm

I understand that you are annoyed by these cards
Well, annoyment is only part of it, yes they are anomalous and take out quite a bit of fun of the game, but they are also game breaking, especially in the case of FW One Ring as Ben points out.

I still think the way to go should be that Blind/Ire should cancel only short-events played to counter some hazard effect. I mean, cancel a Longbottom Leaf at any time during the game, what the hell is that good for anyway?

And FW dunk should be hard? hmm, have you ever tried it? EVEN if you manage to test (-1 mod, only 2 Precious rings), it's still hard enough to win the game afterwards.
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Re: Erratum Proposal: Blind/Ire and Ring Tests

Post by Shapeshifter » Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:39 pm

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:
And FW dunk should be hard? hmm, have you ever tried it? EVEN if you manage to test (-1 mod, only 2 Precious rings), it's still hard enough to win the game afterwards.
I tried it once many years ago. It took me eight turns to "dunk" (but at least I did it at all :D ).

Concerning this proposal I will definitely support that Blind/Ire may not be played on ring tests. I just wanted to point out that there are other possibilities to dunk as a FW.

I like your suggestion, too, Eric, but I need to think more about it before I would vote for it :) . Maybe it is too much and will totally screw up these powerful and IMO direly needed anti-FW cards.

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Re: Erratum Proposal: Blind/Ire and Ring Tests

Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:25 pm

Well, it's not just a proposal, as much as I think it is the original intention of the card. After all, what "chain of effects" is referred to, when you play Longbottom or a Wizard's Test? The only probable chain is the one you start by playing Blind/Ire itself in response. The only thing it does now is stop you from cancelling ongoing effects from short-events played earlier the same turn.

I would also agree with playing Blind/Ire on any short-event during m/h phase, with or without chain of effects, as much as Many Sorrows or Wrath of the West can cancel stuff during m/h phase. But I don't know how to incorporate both these ideas into a simple erratum.

And when it comes to the SWOT analysis of the Fallen alignment, I would certainly like to hear your analysis, I have ample experience in that section as Fallen is my preferred alignment, and imo Blind/Ire are not needed to set the balance straight. How bout duplicating Heart Grown Cold 3 times?

btw. I still don't get what you mean with "other possibilities for FW Dunk", other than using Gandalf a ringtest is 100% needed, so you'd need 4 Tests to be sure to get 1 through...
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Re: Erratum Proposal: Blind/Ire and Ring Tests

Post by Shapeshifter » Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:13 pm

What's the problem with the "chain of effects" here? Blind/Ire target and cancel a card before it resolves in it's (own) chain of effects. Every card usually starts a chain of effects, no matter if there will be any second or more cards be played in response. Look at Twilight, it may, contrary to Gates/Doors for example, target and cancel an environment event played earlier in the chain of effects.
btw. I still don't get what you mean with "other possibilities for FW Dunk", other than using Gandalf a ringtest is 100% needed, so you'd need 4 Tests to be sure to get 1 through...
As I said, Test of Fire and Black Rain. It will be most unlikely that your opponent has 2 Blind and 2 Ire in hand. Probably he will focus on the Blinds as Wizard's Test is most likely to be expected. I don't say, however, that these are good alternatives.

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Re: Erratum Proposal: Blind/Ire and Ring Tests

Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:16 pm

Well, a reasonable person would assume that you'd need at least 2 links for something to be considered a chain, a chain of 1 is pretty daft. But you're right that it is generally formulated this way.

Opponent having both Ire and Blind in hand is indeed unlikely, just as unlikely as scoring The One with a Black Rain :lol:
I mean, you can't really take such factors into consideration. Who knows, you might have tested before opponent has time to draw his sideboarded Blind, or you can have 4 tests in hand, you can have Smoke Rings in hand to immediately recycle your tests and Saruman/Gandalf can get them back...issue remains, Ire/Blind can stop FW dunk pretty cold.
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