Starting War-Forges

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Muzgash
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Starting War-Forges

Post by Muzgash » Sat Feb 14, 2015 9:23 pm

Is it okay to start with War-Forges in play as a lord player (assuming you're starting at a protected lord-haven)? I would think so, but I'm unsure whether the reference to starting Hidden Haven in play in the WH insert is a clarification or an exception.

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Shapeshifter
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Re: Starting War-Forges

Post by Shapeshifter » Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:43 pm

I think that the reference in the White Hand rules insert to Hidden Haven is an exception not a clarification.
If you start at a Ruins & Lairs site, one of your starting stage resource cards may be a Hidden Haven played on your starting site.
Moreover the clarification (or ruling?) on Guarded Haven that
you may not use this card as a starting stage resource
supports this interpretation. From my point of view War-forges is playable on every protected Lordhaven as a starting stage ressource.
Does anybody see any (DC) rule that would lead to a different interpretation?

Vastor Peredhil
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Re: Starting War-Forges

Post by Vastor Peredhil » Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:25 pm

Shapeshifter is correct, if the protected status is on the site & not greated by another card, it is possible to start warforges if you use the site as your starting site

yours Vastor

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Shapeshifter
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Re: Starting War-Forges

Post by Shapeshifter » Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:13 pm

Just reading my post again I think I was a bit ambiguous. Normally (i.e. in non-DC-games) War-forges should not be playable as a starting stage resource because on the one hand there is no valid protected Wizardhaven and on the other hand the rules say nothing that starting stage cards may be played on a site (that is not in play during the draft; exception: Hidden Haven). As a Lordplayer things are a bit different maybe because all Lordhavens from DCFF are protected per se and thus legal targets. But is it possible to play a starting stage card on a site card except for Hidden Haven?

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Re: Starting War-Forges

Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:51 pm

I suppose this is an instance where a DC Ruling is in order. We had rather stayed away from that, as we prefer making rules over rulings, but the rules are more or less set now, and this is one of those famous cases where the ICE rules fall short simply because they don't cover stuff they had not imagined yet.

At the time, Hidden Haven was the only stage card playable on a site that one could start the game with (others require stuff not immediately present, or are unique 3 SP cards). By similar token, ICE explicitly declares only Dwar Unleashed can make a Ringwraith move with region movement. So it shows, that what I would consider essentially a clarification, can lead to an unnecessary limiting of the options in future expansions.

MEWH rules say nothing in general about starting sites being a valid target for stage cards. Nothing in favour, and nothing against it. I had a discussion with Mikko some time before FirstFolk release, about when the starting site is chosen. This matters for quite a few dc cards. He said it was not clearly defined, it might be at any point during the draft. When Hidden Haven is played, you immediately select a site with it. But if it bounces (because of opponent selecting same site), you can repeat the proces. So the starting site only becomes final after the draft. Still the whole process remains shady.

Either way, as 1 of 2 DC judges, I would rule that you can select your starting site during the draft, and that that site can be a target of starting resources.

Any arguments to the contrary are of course taken seriously, but this way a lot of possibilities are opened up, like starting a Possessions of Green/High-elves on an Elfhold, or a Mining Settlements on a Dwarfhold.
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.

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