MECCG on Tabletop Simulator

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janbjo
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Re: MECCG on Tabletop Simulator

Post by janbjo » Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:56 pm

And what about LackeyCCG?
http://www.chrisvos.com/meuk/lackey/meccg/info/

It seems to be a lot easier to install, but what's the verdict on user experience and functionality?

Vastor Peredhil
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Re: MECCG on Tabletop Simulator

Post by Vastor Peredhil » Wed Apr 20, 2016 4:23 pm

If people would continue to support it, and keep doing little things to improve it, as we do for the SVN version, and not go out to build a new platform for vanity reasons, we had a better GCCG indeed, of course it is not perfect, but I do not see the reason why people with programming experiance go about creating yet another platform, which will split the community further,

just my 2 cents

dulcaoin
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Re: MECCG on Tabletop Simulator

Post by dulcaoin » Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:25 pm

janbjo wrote:And what about LackeyCCG?
http://www.chrisvos.com/meuk/lackey/meccg/info/

It seems to be a lot easier to install, but what's the verdict on user experience and functionality?
I don't know about verdicts, but my personal opinion has always been that Travis has a very poor sense of how to make a user interface, and therefore the user experience with Lackey suffers, especially in the eyes of the casual user. Also, when asked to implement features that could give a nicer game flow, he'll just argue that no one would want that, and everyone should just adjust their expectations (because HE would never want that, where "that" is the feature of the day).

A buddy and I tried to pair up with him and give the game a much-needed interface overhaul, but his NDA requirements were absolutely nuts, so that fell through.

I think TTS will have a much larger user-base than LackeyCCG ever has. To be fair, I think Tabletopia will as well.

LackeyCCG is going to appeal to the existing CCG player who already knows what he wants to play (IMHO). Those others are the platform upon which to teach and recruit new players, also IMHO.
Last edited by dulcaoin on Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dulcaoin
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Re: MECCG on Tabletop Simulator

Post by dulcaoin » Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:32 pm

Vastor Peredhil wrote:If people would continue to support it, and keep doing little things to improve it, as we do for the SVN version, and not go out to build a new platform for vanity reasons, we had a better GCCG indeed, of course it is not perfect, but I do not see the reason why people with programming experiance go about creating yet another platform, which will split the community further,

just my 2 cents
In the case of TTS and Tabletopia (and even LackeyCCG or Tabletopia), the platform was built for more general reasons than MECCG. And in the cast of TTS or Tabletopia, sheer force of market share has a chance at keeping the platforms viable and alive, whether MECCG is a part of it or not.

For me, trying to get back to gccg after many years away (but having been someone who built his own executables back at the beginning), I found the process onerous and painful. Even having some knowledge about how gccg is installed and configured, it was far from "turn key." Trying to interest a new player in dealing with that cost-of-entry would be a deal-breaker for nearly every potential friend I can think of trying to get into the game. EVEN if I were there doing the heavy lifting, I can see someone new to the situation giving up before even getting started.

Having been through this a couple cycles already, I can see true value in evaluating the modules that are available, trying to keep all of them as well kept as possible, and then doing the only thing that will work out in the end anyway: Let the market decide.

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Re: MECCG on Tabletop Simulator

Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:45 pm

I've seen the TTS in action, though not played a full game with it, and the handling looked quite cumbersome. Gccg's interface isn't the most user-friendly nor visually appealing, but once you've got acquinted with the commands and shortcuts, for playing a game it's the most useful.
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.

dulcaoin
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Re: MECCG on Tabletop Simulator

Post by dulcaoin » Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:34 pm

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:I've seen the TTS in action, though not played a full game with it, and the handling looked quite cumbersome. Gccg's interface isn't the most user-friendly nor visually appealing, but once you've got acquinted with the commands and shortcuts, for playing a game it's the most useful.
You'll find that to be true of just about anything. I got used to LackeyCCG enough at one point to be comfortable.

TTS felt like a spastic mess to me at first too, but once I watched the videos and learned the (MYRIAD) controls, especially how to magnify the view, close-up the view of an object, zoom to the table, and reset the view, I was able to do a lot of very useful manuevers quickly and easily. The L key for locking/unlocking objects is very very useful, and I use Q and E a lot for card rotation (though I have yet to find the rotation snap option that I've read exists -- that should 90° for this game, obviously).

I'm not even that big a TTS cheerleader, really. It lacks connecting cards to one another (their joint feature doesn't quite cut it) like gccg does, and while I was able to figure out how to (mostly) code up scripts to track scoring, there are still a few features necessary in TTS to do that properly (including card connections). I'd just like to see the provided module be brought up to standards so a game is playable. If there's enough momentum from that, the script features being added to TTS could allow for a functionality approaching gccg's, along with the mass appeal and accessibility of the platform, to attract a more casual player.

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Re: MECCG on Tabletop Simulator

Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Sat Apr 23, 2016 3:02 pm

Hmm perhaps, practising helps and I don't play any videogames so I'm probably motorically challenged in that respect. But the 3d does detract from the focus on the game, picking up cards or flipping them, in gccg that takes a fraction of a second, can you do that quickly in TTS? And yes joining cards is essential in meccg.
I guess what I'm saying is, I don't need a 3D simulation to enjoy the game, the basis is the cards, and those are 2D ;-)
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.

dulcaoin
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Re: MECCG on Tabletop Simulator

Post by dulcaoin » Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:58 pm

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:Hmm perhaps, practising helps and I don't play any videogames so I'm probably motorically challenged in that respect. But the 3d does detract from the focus on the game, picking up cards or flipping them, in gccg that takes a fraction of a second, can you do that quickly in TTS? And yes joining cards is essential in meccg.
I guess what I'm saying is, I don't need a 3D simulation to enjoy the game, the basis is the cards, and those are 2D ;-)
The 3D I don't care so much about. The ability to zoom and pan a larger display area, I think that's very useful (personally).

dulcaoin
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Re: MECCG on Tabletop Simulator

Post by dulcaoin » Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:59 pm

Vastor Peredhil wrote:If people would continue to support it, and keep doing little things to improve it, as we do for the SVN version, and not go out to build a new platform for vanity reasons, we had a better GCCG indeed, of course it is not perfect, but I do not see the reason why people with programming experiance go about creating yet another platform, which will split the community further,

just my 2 cents
What do you think is the #1 thing gccg needs for improvement?

Top 3, even?

-- joshua

Vastor Peredhil
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Re: MECCG on Tabletop Simulator

Post by Vastor Peredhil » Mon Apr 25, 2016 3:55 pm

Plattform to host the standart GCCG download for non SVN
Legality Checks for all allignments in SVN.

There is More and a todo File

dulcaoin
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Re: MECCG on Tabletop Simulator

Post by dulcaoin » Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:08 pm

Vastor Peredhil wrote:Plattform to host the standart GCCG download for non SVN
Legality Checks for all allignments in SVN.

There is More and a todo File
What if someone made a whole new client? Still gccg, but with a better UX?

And I was specifically referring to your comment about people with programming experience. Hosting is a non-development goal/feature.

dulcaoin
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Re: MECCG on Tabletop Simulator

Post by dulcaoin » Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:25 pm

janbjo wrote:Tabletopia is available on Steam now.
dulcaoin wrote:
Pick a month, pick a year, and this has been true for the past decade and a half. The main server will get established, only to fail within a year or two, and then everything gets patched up.

There was a period when I ran the main server at work, because we were a service provider, and my boss OK'd that we do that. (The joke being, the bar of entry on this hasn't ever been that high :-P)
What is the current state of GCCG?
Someone may say you need to go to that subject area to really know. But since no one has responded to this...

(From my understanding) the meta server for gccg was set to run at gccg.councilofelrond.org; but that IP is no longer served by DNS. You want to modify the launch batch file you use to access the proper server.

for instance, you can edit Metw.bat and change the last line from

Code: Select all

start %CLIENT% --design 1024x768 --user %USER% %1 %2 %3 %4 %5 %6 %7 %8 %9  metw.xml
to

Code: Select all

start %CLIENT% --server 199.91.172.122 --design 1024x768 --user %USER% %1 %2 %3 %4 %5 %6 %7 %8 %9  metw.xml
_______

You can the similar operation to MetwDC.bat to play with dream cards. in that case, I believe you're be changing the last line of the file from

Code: Select all

start %CLIENT% --server gccg.councilofelrond.org --design 1024x768 --user %USER% %1 %2 %3 %4 %5 %6 %7 %8 %9  metwDC.xml
to

Code: Select all

start %CLIENT% --server 199.91.172.122 --design 1024x768 --user %USER% %1 %2 %3 %4 %5 %6 %7 %8 %9  metwDC.xml

to access the councilofelrond.org server directly via its IP address, rather than using DNS to do the job.
Last edited by dulcaoin on Mon May 02, 2016 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

janbjo
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Re: MECCG on Tabletop Simulator

Post by janbjo » Sat Apr 30, 2016 3:12 pm

Thank you, I was now able to get GCCG running and connect. That is where it stopped for me. Even LackeyCCG is more user friendly than this software. I also had a brief look around in Tabletop Simulator. First opinion LackeyCCG seems to be the best of the three, but none of them is a good alternative for the future. I don't know how many players are active on a daily basis, but in my opinion a new platform built on more modern technology would be a good idea. Even though we can argue on the model behind Tabletopia, I think the platform is the best so far. OCTGN is also not bad, but the GUI technology used there is already looking outdated.

Vastor Peredhil
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Re: MECCG on Tabletop Simulator

Post by Vastor Peredhil » Sat Apr 30, 2016 3:29 pm

yep saw you online, you could have ask for an introduction ;=) ?

F1 is the command help,

is just users nowadays are frustrated, when everything is not as easy as an APP ;)

really dude it is not that hard, and by far the best (but not most user friendly) of the platforms out there,

also what does new technology offer if all you need is the table and the cards ;) ?

janbjo
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Re: MECCG on Tabletop Simulator

Post by janbjo » Sat Apr 30, 2016 3:45 pm

Vastor Peredhil wrote:yep saw you online, you could have ask for an introduction ;=) ?

F1 is the command help,

is just users nowadays are frustrated, when everything is not as easy as an APP ;)

really dude it is not that hard, and by far the best (but not most user friendly) of the platforms out there,

also what does new technology offer if all you need is the table and the cards ;) ?
Sorry, if I sounded more frustrated than I was. :)

I am a software developer, and I as looking at this from the perspective of growing a community. Yes, apps are easy and I think that is the standard we should demand from modern software. :)
Like you say, all you need is a table and the cards, so a small web application should be perfect for this kind of game, no installation needed.

Gccg might work (and I might even take the time to learn it after I have finished my initial research of options), but I think the first impression is not that good. ;)

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