Fallen Wizards and Opposite alignment resources

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Moriquendi
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Fallen Wizards and Opposite alignment resources

Post by Moriquendi » Fri May 11, 2018 10:11 pm

A few questions on opposite-alignment resources for FW players:

Lets start with the primary ones I am curious about -

Influence Checks against a Faction - Is an opposite alignment card allowed to modify the influence check for a faction? For example, can a player use Muster (hero) on Smaug Roused (minion)? In a separate thread, it was stated that Muster only targets/affects the influence check, not the opposite alignment resource. However, isn't the Influence check itself part of the chain of effects in resolving the Faction card?

Focus Palantir/Align Palantir - Do either of these allow the bearer to use an opposite alignment palantir? The wording on Focus Palantir seems to target the bearer whereas Align Palantir definitely seems to target the palantir.


A few others I need some clarification on -

Gold Ring tests - is an opposite alignment card allowed to initiate the test of a Gold Ring item? i.e. is the Ring the target of the card, or the character initiating the test? For example, can a player use Test of Fire (minion) to test a Beautiful Gold Ring (hero). Second example - Can Black Rain (minion) be used to play a hero ring card since black rain does target or affect a hero resource card? I assume yes based on the WH rules note on ring tests.

Catch an Elusive Scent/Hide in Dark Places/Hoard Well Searched/Bounty of the Hoard/Thorough Search - Since this card targets a Scout, can a player use this at an opposite alignment site? For Catch an Elusive Scent, would this allow another character play an opposite alignment Item?

Down Down to Goblin Town/Secret Passage - Since this card is played in the Organization phase targeting a company, does it matter whether the company moves to a hero or minion ruin & lair site?

Thing Stolen - Can this be used to play a hero minor/major item?

We Have Come to Kill/A Chance Meeting - Discussion for this one is already underway in a thread

Wisdom to Wield - Can this be played to allow the Sage to use a hero Dwarven Ring or hero Palantir?

Hour of Need - Can this be used with a Minion Faction or while a company is sitting at a Minion site?

Quiet Lands - Since this does not specifically target any site (Environment), does this affect minion Shadow-Holds and Ruin & Lairs?

Ringlore/Secrets of Their Forging - These must be played at the same alignment site (Ringlore - hero (i) site, Secrets - minion (i) site) but can test any hero or minion gold ring and allow the play any alignment Dwarven/Spirit/Magic/Minor ring per the ring test rules in the WH rules insert correct?

MEWH Rules insert:
PLAYING AND USING RESOURCES
Playing resources is handled normally with these exceptions:
Testing Gold Rings
Whenever a Fallen-wizard player tests a hero gold ring item, the roll is modified by -1.
Note: The restrictions below do not apply to Spells and Magic.
Targeting Site and Resource Cards1
1 NOTE: This rule does not appear as listed here in the rules insert with the booster packs. This rule is correct and should be considered as though it were printed in the rules insert.
5
MEWH Rules, v. 2.4 Last Edited 2 February 2007 by Mark Alfano
A hero resource event card may not target/affect a minion site card or a minion resource card.
A minion resource event card may not target/affect a hero site card or a hero resource card.
Playing Resources at a Site
In order to play a non-Fallen-wizard resource that would normally tap a site, either the site and the resource to be played must both be hero cards or they must both be minion cards. For these purposes, a Fallen-wizard site card (or any Wizardhaven) is both a hero site and minion site.
This applies to all factions, allies, and items; as well as other cards played during the site phase that tap the site.
Note: When the test of a gold ring indicates that a specific type of ring may be played, you may play either a hero or a minion ring of the appropriate type.
Using Items
All non-Orc/-Troll characters may freely use both hero and minion items.
Last edited by Moriquendi on Sat May 12, 2018 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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the Jabberwock
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Re: Fallen Wizards and Opposite alignment resources

Post by the Jabberwock » Fri May 11, 2018 11:02 pm

I am moving this to the Rules Questions forum since it is a series of questions and not specific to CoE Errata, etc.

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Moriquendi
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Re: Fallen Wizards and Opposite alignment resources

Post by Moriquendi » Fri May 11, 2018 11:30 pm

Doh, thanks

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Bandobras Took
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Re: Fallen Wizards and Opposite alignment resources

Post by Bandobras Took » Sat May 12, 2018 12:39 am

Moriquendi wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 10:11 pm
A few questions on opposite-alignment resources for FW players:

Lets start with the primary ones I am curious about -

Influence Checks against a Faction - Is an opposite alignment card allowed to modify the influence check for a faction? For example, can a player use Muster (hero) on Smaug Roused (minion)? In a separate thread, it was stated that Muster only targets/affects the influence check, not the opposite alignment resource. However, isn't the Influence check itself part of the chain of effects in resolving the Faction card?
It is, but an influence check is by definition not a site or resource, so is fair game. Remember,
TARGETING SITE AND RESOURCE CARDS - A hero resource card may not target/affect a minion site card or a minion resource card. A minion resource card may not target/affect a hero site card or a hero resource card.
White Hand Rules, Playing and Using Resource, Targeting Site and Resource Cards: change both instances of "resource card may not target/affect" to "resource event card may not target/affect."
Focus Palantir/Align Palantir - Do either of these allow the bearer to use an opposite alignment palantir? The wording on Focus Palantir seems to target the bearer whereas Align Palantir definitely seems to target the palantir.
Sage only if a Palantir is in his company. Keep with the Palantir; bearer now has the ability to use the Palantir. Discard Align Palantir if the company carrying the Palantir moves.
ICE hadn't tightened terminology; the card is played on the Palantir, which means it continuously targets it. So no cross-alignment targeting allowed.
Sage only. Playable on a Palantír with a sage in the company. The bearer of the Palantír now has the ability to use the Palantír. Discard Focus Palantír if the Palantír's company moves.
This is tightened terminology; it is definitely played on a Palantir, and therefore targets it.
CRF, Targets wrote:A card that is played on a card continuously targets the card it is on.
Gold Ring tests - is an opposite alignment card allowed to initiate the test of a Gold Ring item? i.e. is the Ring the target of the card, or the character initiating the test? For example, can a player use Test of Fire (minion) to test a Beautiful Gold Ring (hero). Second example - Can Black Rain (minion) be used to play a hero ring card since black rain does target or affect a hero resource card? I assume yes based on the WH rules note on ring tests.
You cannot test opposite alignment rings with a ring test. It affects the resource in question by causing it to be discarded. Note two important things:

1) It can be replaced by either a hero or minion ring item, as the result only tells you what kind of ring can be played, but doesn't target or affect the resultant item; and
2) Wizard's Test is an exception, because of the following from the WH rules:
Note: The restrictions below do not apply to spells and magic.
Catch an Elusive Scent/Hide in Dark Places/Hoard Well Searched/Bounty of the Hoard/Thorough Search - Since this card targets a Scout, can a player use this at an opposite alignment site? For Catch an Elusive Scent, would this allow another character play an opposite alignment Item?
Thorough Search and Catch an Elusive Scent do not target the site, so are valid.
Bounty of the Hoard does not target the site; the site serves as a limiter for where the card may have an effect. Likewise Hoard Well-searched.
Down Down to Goblin Town/Secret Passage - Since this card is played in the Organization phase targeting a company, does it matter whether the company moves to a hero or minion ruin & lair site?
It does not matter.
Thing Stolen - Can this be used to play a hero minor/major item?
Yes.
Wisdom to Wield - Can this be played to allow the Sage to use a hero Dwarven Ring or hero Palantir?
Yes, because it is affecting the character rather than the item.
Hour of Need - Can this be used with a Minion Faction or while a company is sitting at a Minion site?
Yes, since it creates an influence attempt. It does not target/affect the resultant faction.
Quiet Lands - Since this does not specifically target any site (Environment), does this affect minion Shadow-Holds and Ruin & Lairs?
It does target a site; the site must be chosen when the card is declared. Therefore it cannot be used on the minion versions of sites.
Ringlore/Secrets of Their Forging - These must be played at the same alignment site (Ringlore - hero (i) site, Secrets - minion (i) site) but can test any hero or minion gold ring and allow the play any alignment Dwarven/Spirit/Magic/Minor ring per the ring test rules in the WH rules insert correct?
You have misunderstood: it must test a hero/minion gold ring respectively, following the alignment rules, but the resulting ring may be of any alignment.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Moriquendi
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Re: Fallen Wizards and Opposite alignment resources

Post by Moriquendi » Sat May 12, 2018 2:27 am

Bandobras Took wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 12:39 am
Catch an Elusive Scent/Hide in Dark Places/Hoard Well Searched/Bounty of the Hoard/Thorough Search - Since this card targets a Scout, can a player use this at an opposite alignment site? For Catch an Elusive Scent, would this allow another character play an opposite alignment Item?
Thorough Search and Catch an Elusive Scent do not target the site, so are valid.
Bounty of the Hoard does not target the site; the site serves as a limiter for where the card may have an effect. Likewise Hoard Well-searched.
Quiet Lands - Since this does not specifically target any site (Environment), does this affect minion Shadow-Holds and Ruin & Lairs?
It does target a site; the site must be chosen when the card is declared. Therefore it cannot be used on the minion versions of sites.

For Bounty of the Hoard vs. Hoard Well Searched - Despite the similar effect, these two seem to target different things.

Hoard Well Searched clearly states it is played on a company.

Bounty doesn't specify what it is played on, but does make reference to "a tapped site" - does this tapped site need to be named? If so, wouldn't Bounty not work for opposite alignment sites?

Thanks for all the clarifications!

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Fallen Wizards and Opposite alignment resources

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat May 12, 2018 2:31 am

Quiet Lands in it's first effect targets attack, not a site.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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Re: Fallen Wizards and Opposite alignment resources

Post by Shapeshifter » Sat May 12, 2018 6:07 am

Bandobras Took wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 12:39 am
Hour of Need - Can this be used with a Minion Faction or while a company is sitting at a Minion site?
Yes, since it creates an influence attempt. It does not target/affect the resultant faction.
Well, at least in theory if there wouldn't be this rule:
MEWH rules wrote:You may not include any of the following cards:
...
Hour of Need
...

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Bandobras Took
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Re: Fallen Wizards and Opposite alignment resources

Post by Bandobras Took » Sat May 12, 2018 1:26 pm

How dare you introduce reality into our rules theories? ;)
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Bandobras Took
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Re: Fallen Wizards and Opposite alignment resources

Post by Bandobras Took » Sat May 12, 2018 1:30 pm

Not everything mentioned on a card is a target. Bount/Hoard allow item play. The item must be played at a site that meets certain conditions. But Bounty/Hoard don't target or affect the site; they merely enable an action.

Note that the item then played must match the alignment of the site.
In order to play a non-Fallen-wizard resource that would normally tap a site, either the site and the resource to be played must both be hero cards or they must both be minion cards.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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