Tidings of Bold Spies

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kober
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Tidings of Bold Spies

Post by kober » Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:54 am

What happens when a hero company is moving to The Under-gates, while both Balrog of Moria and Forewarned is Forearmed are in play, and Tidings of Bold Spies is being declared? I assume that the first AA is considered cancelled due to the site's special and thus it's not being duplicated by ToBS, but what is the second AA at the declaration of ToBS? Is the second-AA-creature playable before the site phase at all? And would the second AA be non-cancellable due to FiF, and thus its ToBS duplicate too?
Last edited by kober on Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Tidings of Bold Spies

Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:13 am

ICE never decided when to play a creature as AA.
Regardless of above a hero site The Under-gates is reduced to having a one AA of hazard player's choice.
That cannot be canceled. So even if one of conditions under Special is met, the site may have Balrog AA, that will be unsuccessfully canceled.
What if hazard player chose that The Under-gates has only 2nd AA, I do not know. Maybe hazard player will be able to play a creature normally keyed to [-me_rl-] as AA.
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kober
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Re: Tidings of Bold Spies

Post by kober » Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:25 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:13 am
So even if one of conditions under Special is met, the site may have Balrog AA, that will be unsuccessfully canceled.
If I'm reading this correctly, due to FiF being in play, if the hazard player chose the Balrog AA (out of the two AAs) the attack would not be cancelled, even though BoM is in play? Could you please elaborate why FiF's effect would have priority over site's special?

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Bandobras Took
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Re: Tidings of Bold Spies

Post by Bandobras Took » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:30 pm

Special: If Balrog of Moria is in play or if it or Durin's Bane has been defeated, the first automatic attack is canceled.
Any non-Dragon Lair site with more than one automatic-attack is reduced to having one automatic-attack of the hazard player's choice (cannot be canceled).
If we were to accept that the Under-Gates could override Forewarned is Forearmed, then any effect that cancels an attack would override FiF. All Under-Gates does is cancel the attack, and FiF is specifically made to prevent attacks from being cancelled.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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kober
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Re: Tidings of Bold Spies

Post by kober » Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:11 pm

Fair enough! The situation when the hazard player chooses to duplicate the Balrog AA is now clear. Thank you.

Now, getting back to the original scenario, I've got the following three questions:
1) If the hazard player chose to duplicate (during M/H phase, with ToBS) the second AA, would the creature be playable at that moment?
2) During the site phase, if the company chose to enter the site, would the hazard player be obliged to choose the same AA that had been chosen for ToBS?
3) During the site phase, if the hazard player chose the second AA could a creature different to the one played for ToBS be played as the AA?

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Bandobras Took
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Re: Tidings of Bold Spies

Post by Bandobras Took » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:33 pm

CRF wrote:Tidings of Bold Spies only copies attacks, not effects that allow certain creatures to become automatic-attacks.
This is a bit convoluted, but bear with me:
Iron-Deeps wrote:Automatic-attacks (2): (1st) Trolls - 3 strikes with 9 prowess
(2nd) Opponent may play as an automatic-attack one non-unique hazard creature from his hand normally keyed to Ruins & Lairs
Special: If the Witch-king of Angmar is in play as a permanent-event, it must be used as an additional automatic-attack (discard after use-ignore result of defeat).
Iron-Deeps lists two attacks and one effect that allows a certain creature to become an automatic-attack.

I think there is a distinction between the two. The 2nd automatic-attack is not an effect. It is an automatic-attack. Tidings of Bold Spies would copy the automatic-attack, but not the "Special:"

That's really open to interpretation, though.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Tidings of Bold Spies

Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:00 pm

Bandobras Took wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:33 pm
I think there is a distinction between the two. The 2nd automatic-attack is not an effect. It is an automatic-attack. Tidings of Bold Spies would copy the automatic-attack, but not the "Special:"
I agree.

It still does not say when a playing a creature as an AA is allowed (and how long a type and features of the AA are lasting).
When needed (until end of turn)?
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Bandobras Took
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Re: Tidings of Bold Spies

Post by Bandobras Took » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:06 pm

I believe:

Tidings of Bold Spies would create an attack which states "Opponent may play as an automatic-attack one non-unique hazard creature from his hand normally keyed to X". The opponent would then play a creature if possible, and the attack created by Tidings would take on the relevant attributes. Once the attack is faced and Tidings is discarded, there is no more attack.

If a company then entered the site, they would face an attack which states "Opponent may play as an automatic-attack one non-unique hazard creature from his hand normally keyed to X." This would require the opponent to play a new creature if possible, and the attack would take on the relevant attributes until after the attack is faced.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Tidings of Bold Spies

Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:47 am

Does it mean that between executing Tidings of Bold Spies and entering a site (or between executing of two Tidings of Bold Spies in the same M/H phase) a type and features of AA are undetermined?

If Tidings of Bold Spies is played on company moving to hero Framsburg and Olog-Hai (Trolls) is played as AA, later Framsburg is not considered having Trolls AA and Troll-purse cannot be played on the site?
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Bandobras Took
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Re: Tidings of Bold Spies

Post by Bandobras Took » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:46 pm

That would be my interpretation, yes. There is an automatic-attack, but it is only defined while being faced.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Tidings of Bold Spies

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:53 am

Looks like very consistent theory (belief). 8)
I'm convinced.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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