Curiosity: An item played tapped

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Konrad Klar
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Curiosity: An item played tapped

Post by Konrad Klar » Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:01 pm

Armory wrote:Only you and your companies can use Armory. You may place any minor items from your hand under Armory during your organization phase. A character at a Haven [H] can store a minor item under Armory instead of to your marshalling point pile. When you otherwise would be allowed to play a minor item from your hand at a Border-hold, Free-hold [F], or Haven [H], you may play an item from under Armory instead. If you have at least three minor items under Armory, gain 1 marshalling point.
Slip Treacherously wrote:Tap all untapped items in play. Item effects not requiring tapping apply normally. Whether it was an accident, or a last trick of the ring before it took a new master, it was not on his finger.-Hob
Is there a rule that says that newly played item comes into play always in untapped state?
If there is no such rule...
Text of Armory does not say that an items placed under Armory are off to the side. Therefore Slip Treacherously can affect them and they may be in tapped state when played.
I do not think that it may have a big impact on game but still. E.g. for a resource player this may be opportunity for playing (and releasing from hand) Wielded Twice, if he does not see a better use for the card in foreseeable future; Jewel of Beleriand will not be immediately usable.
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Theo
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Re: Curiosity: An item played tapped

Post by Theo » Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:08 am

MELE p13 wrote: Normally, during play, each of your cards is placed on the playing surface so that its top is towards your opponent and its bottom is toward you.
I would think that to "play" a card is to (re)place it on the playing surface, so any minor items played with Armory would be untapped just as any other played items.

If Armory only transferred the card (Call of Home, etc) instead of playing it, it would maintain state.
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Re: Curiosity: An item played tapped

Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:48 am

An item played from under Armory is (unlike other played items) the item already in play. It is even not comparable to playing a ring special item associated with Rumours of Rings, because in this case the ring special item is played "as though it were in your hand".
Rumours of Rings wrote:During your organization phase, you may take one ring special item (except for The One Ring) from your sideboard and place it off to the side with this card. This item gives no marshalling points. A maximum of two items may be with this card at one time. You may play a ring special item placed with this card as though it were in your hand. You may start the game with this card in lieu of playing a minor item.
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Re: Curiosity: An item played tapped

Post by Theo » Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:57 pm

Play is play. The passage I quoted is not restricted to play from hand.

Playing from your hand would satisfy(/trigger) active(/passive) conditions that are based on play from your hand, while playing from Armory wouldn't satisfy those conditions (but that doesn't mean that it isn't still "play").
Crown of Flowers wrote:... You can play one resource from your hand with this card. ...
You cannot play cards from Armory with Crown of Flowers. You could play a ring from Rumours of Rings with Crown of Flowers.
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Re: Curiosity: An item played tapped

Post by Konrad Klar » Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:24 am

Theo wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:57 pm
Play is play. The passage I quoted is not restricted to play from hand.
The passage you have quoted:
MELE p13 wrote:Normally, during play, each of your cards is placed on the playing surface so that its top is towards your opponent and its bottom is toward you.
is not necessarily relevant.

During play not everything is normal, or goes normally.

BTW.
How cards are (normally) placed and how cards are (normally) being placed are not the same things.
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Re: Curiosity: An item played tapped

Post by Konrad Klar » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:01 am

Example of a cards that may came into play in other orientation than untapped:
CRF, Rulings by Term, Fallen-wizard wrote:When a site is replaced with a site of the opposite alignment, the new site comes into
play in the same orientation as the other site.
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Bandobras Took
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Re: Curiosity: An item played tapped

Post by Bandobras Took » Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:18 am

I think items under Armory would be tapped by Slipped Treacherously since they are not off to the side.

Nothing indicates that they would untap when played from Armory in such a case, though anything that would untap them normally would also do so while they are under Armory.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Re: Curiosity: An item played tapped

Post by Theo » Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:46 am

Konrad Klar wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:24 am
Theo wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:57 pm
Play is play. The passage I quoted is not restricted to play from hand.
The passage you have quoted:
MELE p13 wrote:Normally, during play, each of your cards is placed on the playing surface so that its top is towards your opponent and its bottom is toward you.
is not necessarily relevant.

During play not everything is normal, or goes normally.
Yes. However, if there is a baseline "normal" rule that could apply and nothing else that overrules it, you can't just arbitrarily decide to ignore its existence or claim that it isn't relevant. I am not aware of any rules that indicate that play from places other than hand should not use the MELE p13 rule, other than specific cards that explicitly state how they should be played in a specific instance.
Konrad Klar wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:24 am
BTW.
How cards are (normally) placed and how cards are (normally) being placed are not the same things.
Can you clarify what distinction you deem important here?
Bandobras Took wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:18 am
Nothing indicates that they would untap when played from Armory in such a case, though anything that would untap them normally would also do so while they are under Armory.
I am claiming that they aren't untapping. They are being replayed in an untapped state.
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Re: Curiosity: An item played tapped

Post by Konrad Klar » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:35 am

Theo wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:46 am
Konrad Klar wrote: ↑
06 Apr 2018, 11:24
BTW.
How cards are (normally) placed and how cards are (normally) being placed are not the same things.

Can you clarify what distinction you deem important here?
Normally, during play, each of your cards is placed on the playing surface so that its top is towards your opponent and its bottom is toward you.
The state will remain until a card will be tapped or inverted. It is not a rare situation.

The rule does not say about orientation in which a card comes into play (at the point a card is being placed).
Perhaps the orientation normally is "that its top is towards your opponent and its bottom is toward you." (untapped).
At least for FW player the site cards that he replaces do not always come into play in untapped orientation.

I'm suspecting that playing an item from under Armory is not normal situation.
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Re: Curiosity: An item played tapped

Post by Bandobras Took » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:55 pm

Theo wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:46 am
I am claiming that they aren't untapping. They are being replayed in an untapped state.
They are being played, but not by the normal process (bringing a card from your hand and putting it into play). The card under Armory is not in your hand and is already in play. Since it is already in play, it can be affected, and the mere act of using Armory's ability to play a card does not of itself erase anything that has already happened to the card.

Play of an item from Armory would trigger Greed, for example. But since the item never leaves play, there is nothing to indicate that any state it was in would not continue to exist.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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