Converted Havens

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the Jabberwock
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Converted Havens

Post by the Jabberwock » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:59 am

Can you play items at a site converted to a Haven?

ie. If I play Roots of the Earth on The Drowning Deeps, the auto-attacks are removed, but nothing prevents me from still playing minor and major items at this Darkhaven site, correct?

Additionally - the site special which states: "Creatures keyed to Coastal Sea and any drakes may be keyed to this site" continues to apply even while The Drowning Deeps is a haven?

Finally, is The Drowning Deeps still a Ruins and Lairs while a Haven at the same time? Or is there a rule which only permits a site to be one type at a time?

Thanks

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Bandobras Took
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Re: Converted Havens

Post by Bandobras Took » Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:54 pm

Balrog specific. Playable during the site phase on an Under-deeps site noramlly a Ruins & Lairs if The Balrog is there. The Balrog's company faces an attack (Drake 2 strikes with 13 prowess). Following the attack, tap The Balrog or discard this card. The associated site is a Darkhaven and loses all automatic-attacks. All other versions of the site become a Shadow-hold and gain an additional automatic-attack: Orcs 5 strikes with 9 prowess. If Breach the Hold is on the same site, this card gives 3 marshalling points. This site is never discarded or returned to its location deck. Cannot be duplicated on a given site.
It doesn't contain the phrase "Nothing is considered playable as written on the site card." So, go ahead. FW haven-creating cards do have that phrase, presumably because they don't have to face an attack to create their havens.

The wording of this card seems unique; it says the site is a Darkhaven rather than that the site becomes one. I don't know if that is deliberate wording to say the site continues to be a ruins & lairs as well or whether ICE was just being sloppy. There are good reasons to suspect the former, since the card goes on to say that the other versions *become* shadow-holds. Might need NetRep clarification.

Special abilities are not affected unless otherwise noted.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Converted Havens

Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:10 pm

I do not know whether the different wording is a indicator of anything.
Houses of Healing wrote:Playable on a Free-hold [F]. Site becomes a Haven [H] for purposes of healing. Discard Houses of Healing when the site is returned to the location deck or discarded. ...the leechcraft of Gondor was still wise, and skilled in the healing of wound and hurt, and all such sickness... -LotRV
Here, despite the fact that target site remains [-me_fh-], the site becomes a Haven [H] for purposes of healing.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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Bandobras Took
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Re: Converted Havens

Post by Bandobras Took » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:43 pm

I disagree. A healing effect that requires a Free-hold could not be used at a Houses of Healing site. The site does not remain a Free-hold for that purpose.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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the Jabberwock
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Re: Converted Havens

Post by the Jabberwock » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:03 pm

Bandobras Took wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:43 pm
I disagree. A healing effect that requires a Free-hold could not be used at a Houses of Healing site. The site does not remain a Free-hold for that purpose.
But the site does remain a Free Hold for non-healing purposes, correct? If so, the site is both a Free Hold and a Haven at the same time.

In the case of Roots of the Earth, it would appear that The Drowning Deeps would act as both a Ruins and Lairs and Darkhaven simultaneously, which means that Iron Shield of Old could be played there after Roots of the Earth is played, as well as hazard creatures which can be keyed to Ruins and Lairs.

Perhaps indeed a NetRep clarification would be nice, but we do not currently have such a person.

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Bandobras Took
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Re: Converted Havens

Post by Bandobras Took » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:31 pm

I'm not sure it is at the same time; presumably nothing else is going on while one determines the validity of "for the purposes of healing."
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Converted Havens

Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:11 pm

Bandobras Took wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:43 pm
I disagree. A healing effect that requires a Free-hold could not be used at a Houses of Healing site. The site does not remain a Free-hold for that purpose.
My points is that "is given site type" and "becomes given site type" does not necessarily changes meaning.
Because "becomes" is not reserved for cards that change a site type for all purposes.
Some cards that use "becomes" may change site type only for certain purposes.
Now imagine a reverse situation - that Houses of Healing says "Site is a Haven [H] for purposes of healing."
What a difference?

Rebuild the Town, Hold Rebuilt and Repaired, Hidden Haven cause a sites becoming an other type for all purposes.
Second fashion: Deeper Shadow changes [-me_rl-] to [-me_sh-] for all purposes.

Houses of Healing, Mallorn, The White Tree cause a sites becoming a Haven for some purposes, not changing their types for other purposes.
Second fashion: minion Geann a-Lisch says that the site counts as [-me_rl-] for some purposes.

At the dessert: FW Rhosgobel.
"This site is a protected Wizardhaven."
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Converted Havens

Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:16 pm

Oh yes.
Hypothetical effect that would allow to heal at [-me_fh-] (but not at [-me_ha-]) would not work at site with Houses of Healing.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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rezwits
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Re: Converted Havens

Post by rezwits » Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:54 am

To me Roots, is similar to the card:

Rebuild the Town:

Playable on a non-Dragon's lair, non-Under-deeps Ruins & Lairs (R). The site becomes a Border-hold (B) and loses all automatic-attacks. Discard Rebuild the Town when the site is discarded or returned to its location deck. "...the desolation was now filled with birds and blossoms in spring and fruit and feasting in autumn."-Hob

And you can now play items at will if you really want to get jiggy and start cracking the Fireworks! :P

But I am sure you were aware of this old-school combo.

And also I am ready, for the: "This combo doesn't work because..."

:(
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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the Jabberwock
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Re: Converted Havens

Post by the Jabberwock » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:54 am

Konrad Klar wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:11 pm

Houses of Healing, Mallorn, The White Tree cause a sites becoming a Haven for some purposes, not changing their types for other purposes.
Second fashion: minion Geann a-Lisch says that the site counts as [-me_rl-] for some purposes.
I would just like to confirm....

Playing The White Tree at Minas Tirith does not allow you to store items at Minas Tirith (because it only becomes a Haven for healing and hazard play), correct?

Related question: Since stored cards are only considered to be in play for purposes of Uniqueness, it is not legal to play The White Tree at Minas Tirith while discarding a stored Sapling of the White Tree to fulfill it's requirement, correct?

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Converted Havens

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:27 am

the Jabberwock wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:54 am
Playing The White Tree at Minas Tirith does not allow you to store items at Minas Tirith (because it only becomes a Haven for healing and hazard play), correct?
Yes.
the Jabberwock wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:54 am
Related question: Since stored cards are only considered to be in play for purposes of Uniqueness, it is not legal to play The White Tree at Minas Tirith while discarding a stored Sapling of the White Tree to fulfill it's requirement, correct?
Yes.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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Mordakai
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Re: Converted Havens

Post by Mordakai » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:15 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:27 am
the Jabberwock wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:54 am
Related question: Since stored cards are only considered to be in play for purposes of Uniqueness, it is not legal to play The White Tree at Minas Tirith while discarding a stored Sapling of the White Tree to fulfill it's requirement, correct?
Yes.
WTF??? So a card cannot be played as is stated in its own text? If I store the Sapling on Minas Tirith I cannot play the Tree? Are we getting crazy? C'mon...
C'mon, not the Elves of Lindon AGAIN...

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Bandobras Took
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Re: Converted Havens

Post by Bandobras Took » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:48 pm

Items may be stored when you are at a site, but I don't know that they continue to be at that site once stored.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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the Jabberwock
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Re: Converted Havens

Post by the Jabberwock » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:00 am

Bandobras Took wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:48 pm
Items may be stored when you are at a site, but I don't know that they continue to be at that site once stored.
Even if stored items are considered to somehow be "at the site", the CRF stating that "Stored cards are not considered to be in play, except for uniqueness" doesn't really leave room for a stored Sapling to be discarded to play The White Tree. I'm not saying I'm in favor of this, as thematically it doesn't make much sense, but it does seem to be consistent with the rules regarding stored items.

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Bandobras Took
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Re: Converted Havens

Post by Bandobras Took » Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:36 am

I can't recall if cards have to be discarded from play by default.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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