Unique Short Events

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the Jabberwock
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Unique Short Events

Post by the Jabberwock » Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:16 pm

I came across the following ruling by Van in ICE Digest #581.....
2- If my opponent played News of Doom, can I play my copy of the card later in the same game?

No. News of Doom in unique. Only one copy can be played during a game.
Perhaps this was obvious to others, but I was completely unaware of this rule. In my past games, we have always played that a Unique short event was essentially Unique for deck construction purposed only, and that it could be played multiple times by one player AND/OR played once or more by both players (if both players have a copy in their deck).

So if I play Favor of the Valor (for example), my opponent may never play his copy of Favor, nor may I play it again once I exhaust my play deck and reshuffle or recycle it with Smoke Rings?

Has there been any further discussion or clarification on this topic?

Thanks

Kjeld
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Re: Unique Short Events

Post by Kjeld » Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:33 pm

Seems like this would dramatically affect play of Many Sorrows Befall, as well.

the Jabberwock
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Re: Unique Short Events

Post by the Jabberwock » Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:44 pm

Kjeld wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:33 pm
Seems like this would dramatically affect play of Many Sorrows Befall, as well.
Yes, of course. That is probably the most obvious example.

Konrad Klar
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Re: Unique Short Events

Post by Konrad Klar » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:30 pm

News of Doom wrote:Unique. Each player makes a roll (draws a #) for each faction he has in play. Discard any faction if the result is 2 or 3, or it its result plus the player's unused general influence is less than 10. Remove News of Doom from the game. ...they hid themselves in fear and would not come forth until the day was up...-LotRV
Text of the card says that it is removed from the game, just like Strider after replacing by Aragorn II.
For the pair Aragorn II - Strider this means that there is no conflict of manifestation of the same unique card in play. Strider removed merely from play (e.g. in result of failed body check) would still count as a being in play for purposes of uniqueness.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

Bandobras Took
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Re: Unique Short Events

Post by Bandobras Took » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:24 pm

@ Konrad: Are you saying then that Van was mistaken?
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly.

Konrad Klar
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Re: Unique Short Events

Post by Konrad Klar » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:38 pm

Bandobras Took wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:24 pm
@ Konrad: Are you saying then that Van was mistaken?
Yes. Or in text of News of Doom "from the game" should be replaced be "from play" (then Van would be right).
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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Re: Unique Short Events

Post by rezwits » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:36 pm

I just checked there are only 2 cards that are UNIQUE, and state "Remove 'said card' from the game."

So I would think if one plays Valor then your Opponent wouldn't be able to.

I fail to see how Many Sorrows falls into this category? Can someone explain? I mean I know it's unique, but it doesn't get removed (or DIE, analogy)...
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

Kjeld
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Re: Unique Short Events

Post by Kjeld » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:39 pm

rezwits wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:36 pm
I fail to see how Many Sorrows falls into this category? Can someone explain? I mean I know it's unique, but it doesn't get removed (or DIE, analogy)...
It follows directly from the CRF response quoted at the top, "No. News of Doom in unique. Only one copy can be played during a game." No reference to being removed from the game or not, just a reference to the short event being unique.

rezwits
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Re: Unique Short Events

Post by rezwits » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:54 pm

2- If my opponent's played Balin (DIES), can I play my copy of the card later in the same game?

No. Balin is unique. Only one copy can be played during a game. (Because it get's removed from game, i.e. DIES)

Same inference...

I just substitute, a unique card for a unique card. And take the UNDERSTOOD into account when looking at the RULING.

What is the understood?
Remove News of Doom from the game.

I mean each character doesn't have, "When Balin is eliminated, remove him from the game."

I think that Saying Many Sorrows, get's removed from the game, is reaching.

Because you could argue, Why didn't they put:
Remove Many Sorrows Befall from the game?

Andúril, the Flame of the West UNIQUE event
All Nazgûl Permanent, are UNIQUE, and become Short-events?

I mean come on, you are saying if it's an Event and it's Unique, and it's used it's GONE?
Mouth of Sauron?

Come ON? This is a HUGE misinterpretation!
Last edited by rezwits on Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

rezwits
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Re: Unique Short Events

Post by rezwits » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:57 pm

The Balance of Things?
The Pale Sword?
Fury of the Iron Crown?
any Ahunt?
any At Home?
Revealed to All Watchers?

I mean, this changes the game in such a way...

You have to consider the speed at which this Ruling was made, to me It was made with the OBVIOUS understanding that News of Doom says RFG, (which is the same as Character DEATH).

No Valar, YEP, it's got the (Elimination) RFG disclaimer, so for sure, that counts...
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

rezwits
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Re: Unique Short Events

Post by rezwits » Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:50 am

I think the main issue probably was, and IS: Multi-player games.

Think about a game, which I would love to do:

2 RWs vs 2 Wiz, now the RWs are like we're gonna MUSTER, and both Play News of Doom.

That would be SICK, and hella broken.

6 Musters, and Super Muster (News of Doom) Twice!

Way to much and powerful... IMHO

Just something, to think about...(especially cause the RWs get the +5, unused [-me_gi-]
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

DamienX207
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Re: Unique Short Events

Post by DamienX207 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:17 pm

Hey Jab, I was thinking about this more after we talked, and I agree with others that the "Remove from the game" clause is the important distinction even though it wasn't mentioned in that original quote. To cite the rulebook:

Clarification: In general, cards in your out-of-play pile and your marshalling point pile are considered to be actively in play for the purposes of being unique (if the card states it is unique).

In other words, uniqueness applies to in-play and out-of-play but NOT discard pile because otherwise it would be too complicated for players try to remember which unique cards are in their opponent's (hidden) discard pile.

No, character cards don't say that they are removed from the game on the actual card; but it's in the rulebook, and again, with an emphasis on the bold citation above. You can play a unique character that's in your opponent's discard pile, but not if it's been killed and thus in out-of-play pile, thus counting as in-play for uniqueness.

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Re: Unique Short Events

Post by the Jabberwock » Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:50 pm

DamienX207 wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:17 pm
Hey Jab, I was thinking about this more after we talked, and I agree with others that the "Remove from the game" clause is the important distinction even though it wasn't mentioned in that original quote. To cite the rulebook:

Clarification: In general, cards in your out-of-play pile and your marshalling point pile are considered to be actively in play for the purposes of being unique (if the card states it is unique).

In other words, uniqueness applies to in-play and out-of-play but NOT discard pile because otherwise it would be too complicated for players try to remember which unique cards are in their opponent's (hidden) discard pile.

No, character cards don't say that they are removed from the game on the actual card; but it's in the rulebook, and again, with an emphasis on the bold citation above. You can play a unique character that's in your opponent's discard pile, but not if it's been killed and thus in out-of-play pile, thus counting as in-play for uniqueness.
I agree completely my friend. If the unique short event is "removed from the game" then it should not be playable again by either player. If it is not removed from the game, it should be playable again by either player.

My hunch is that maybe this is what Van meant when answering the question about News of Doom, but he used improper verbiage. No way to know for certain. In any event, I think I will submit this for consideration to be included as a clarification during this year's Annual Rules Vote.

Bandobras Took
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Re: Unique Short Events

Post by Bandobras Took » Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:40 pm

Imprecise, perhaps. It is totally possible to read Van's quote as saying that News of Doom's mechanics are unique, not that News of Doom has this property by reason of the Unique keyword.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly.

DamienX207
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Re: Unique Short Events

Post by DamienX207 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:58 pm

Uniquely unique!

(other than Valar) :wink:

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