Playing RIVER On Guard

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the Jabberwock
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Playing RIVER On Guard

Post by the Jabberwock » Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:04 pm

I'm sure this has been discussed or answered somewhere but I can't seem to find it.

Can RIVER be played On-Guard?

CRF states that you have until the beginning of the site phase to tap a Ranger.

Generally you reveal On-Guard cards during the site phase as appropriate to what is happening.

So could you legally play a RIVER On Guard and then reveal it as soon as the site phase begins? (ie. "at the beginning of the site phase")

Thanks

Konrad Klar
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Re: Playing RIVER On Guard

Post by Konrad Klar » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:43 pm

The On-Guard cards are not played but placed.
Any card may be placed On-Guard.
CRF, Turn Sequence, Site Phase, On-Guard Cards wrote: A card cannot be revealed that:
• Returns a company to its site of origin
• Taps a company's site
• Potentially removes a character from a company, besides combat or corruption
checks
• Forces a company to do nothing during its site phase
• Directly taps a character in the company
I must admit that it is not clear for me.
First - I cannot imagine how it is possible to return a company to its site of origin outside of M/H phase.
Second - third disallowed category says "Potentially", fourth does not.

River only potentially forces a company to do nothing during its site phase; a player may decide to tap a ranger.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

Bandobras Took
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Re: Playing RIVER On Guard

Post by Bandobras Took » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:30 pm

River is an ugly card, and rulings on it moreso. ;)
Site Phase
In the order you decide (i.e., you decide which goes first, second, etc.), each of your companies may:
· do nothing or
· follow this procedure:
1. Enter its site.
The card will remain on that site until one of the following occurs:
· The company decides to face the site's automatic-attack. If the on-guard card is a hazard creature keyed to the company's site or a hazard that can modify the automatic-attack, it may be revealed before the automatic-attack is resolved. If it is a hazard creature, it will attack after the automatic-attack is resolved.
· The company plays a card that potentially taps the site. If the on-guard card is a non-creature hazard, it may be revealed if it is a hazard that directly affects the company or a character in the company (e.g., a hazard that forces all characters to make a corruption check).
· Otherwise, return the card to your hand at the end of the site phase.
In the first two cases, the card is handled as if it had been played during the movement-hazard phase (i.e., short-events are discarded, long-events last until your opponent's next long-event phase, etc.).
It is only possible to reveal an on-guard card after it is impossible for a company to do nothing during the site phase.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly.

rezwits
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Re: Playing RIVER On Guard

Post by rezwits » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:38 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:43 pm
The On-Guard cards are not played but placed.
Any card may be placed On-Guard.
CRF, Turn Sequence, Site Phase, On-Guard Cards wrote: A card cannot be revealed that:
• Returns a company to its site of origin
• Taps a company's site
• Potentially removes a character from a company, besides combat or corruption
checks
• Forces a company to do nothing during its site phase
• Directly taps a character in the company
I must admit that it is not clear for me.
First - I cannot imagine how it is possible to return a company to its site of origin outside of M/H phase.
Second - third disallowed category says "Potentially", fourth does not.

River only potentially forces a company to do nothing during its site phase; a player may decide to tap a ranger.
THANKS for that POST! Didn't really know those, ALL...
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

the Jabberwock
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Re: Playing RIVER On Guard

Post by the Jabberwock » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:13 pm

So based on Konrad and Bandobras' answers, it seems that the answer to my question is not clear. It could be argued either way.

It seems to me that River should not be allowed to be played on guard. True, it only POTENTIALLY forces your company to do nothing (because you may tap a Ranger), but if you don't have an untapped Ranger at that time, then it does indeed force you to do nothing and thus would be illegal based on the CRF.

Also, as Bandobras points out, it's unclear at what point the River would legally even be revealed as an On Guard card.

On balance, I feel allowing it to be placed On Guard would also make an already very powerful card even more powerful.

rezwits
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Re: Playing RIVER On Guard

Post by rezwits » Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:07 am

This is how I read the play of River:

Playable on a site. If a company that has moved to this site this turn does not tap a ranger, it must do nothing during its site phase. "In the far stage, under the distant lamps, they could just make out a figure...as they looked it seemed to move and sway this way and that, as if searching the ground. It then crawled, or went crouching, back into the gloom beyond the lamps."-LotRI

In bold, meaning, you play this on a destination site, or even an origin site (which I think would be stupid, because somewhere I think the rules state a company forced to return to it's site of origin, must do nothing during the site phase, but in any case) you play it on a site, then you may ALSO play an On-Guard card.

Then when the company gets there, you have time to sit around and think, and go you know what? I am going to tap "a ranger."

Now that you have tapped the ranger, you get passed "the river" and then can still enter on the same turn, instead of struggling with the river, and getting to the site "late."

But it cannot be "Played on a site" as an on-guard card, because of those CRFs"

You could play it as an On-Guard as a Bluff, but you can't reveal it as an On-guard.
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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