(Un)happy Blows

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Konrad Klar
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(Un)happy Blows

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:55 am

Unhappy Blows wrote:Playable on a company containing both Dwarves and Elves, or both Orcs and Trolls. Make a roll (draw a #) and subtract five (seven for Orcs and Trolls). If available, your opponent must choose and return to his hand any number of Elves and Dwarves (or Orcs and Trolls) in the company whose total mind equals or exceeds this result. Items played with these characters are also returned to opponent's hand. Cannot be duplicated on a given turn.
Seems like high result of a dice roll may be sometimes more favourable for defender than lowest result.
If a company contains Orc Brawler (mind 1) as only Orc character and Troll Lout (mind 3) as only Troll character and unmodified dice roll is 12 then there is no characters available whose total mind exceed or equals 5. If the dice roll before modification would be 11 then both characters would be returned to its player hand.

Bonus questions:
What is number to subtract if target company (lets say at Wizardhaven) contains Dwarves, and Elves, and Orcs, and Trolls?
Or maybe "or" in phrase "Dwarves and Elves, or both Orcs and Trolls." is an exclusive "or" so such company is not valid target for Unhappy Blows?
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Bandobras Took
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Re: (Un)happy Blows

Post by Bandobras Took » Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:36 pm

I believe when you play the card, you must choose which "company" you are playing it on, so to speak. You can play it on a company containing Elves and Dwarves, or you can play it on a company containing Orcs and Trolls. The rest of the effects of the card proceed from that choice.

While a high roll might be a favorable result as you describe, that merely means Unhappy Blows has a smaller effect against a group of low-MP characters than a group of mid-high MP characters, which seems reasonably enough.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Konrad Klar
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Re: (Un)happy Blows

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:35 pm

Now I see other possibility.
One dice roll and two modified results - one for Elves and Dwarves, other for Orcs and Trolls.
Because text of the card does not contain "alternatively" phrase* it seems for me as an approach more compliant with rest of game.

*) compare it with Gnaw with Words.
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the Jabberwock
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Re: (Un)happy Blows

Post by the Jabberwock » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:24 pm

I recently read back over this card and it seems quite powerful to me. Perhaps I am misunderstanding how it works, so I would like to clarify...

Scenario:

My Minion opponent starts the game with the following characters at Dol Guldur:

Lieutentant of Dol Guldur (troll)
Lagduf (orc)
Radbug (orc)
Snaga (orc)

This is a very plausible starting company. The total mind of his company is 20. On my opponent's first turn he declares movement and I play Unhappy Blows.

So, if I roll a 2, the modified result is -5, and my opponent must choose any 1 character to return to his hand. Is this correct?

If I roll a 7, the modified result is 0, and again my opponent must choose any 1 character to return to his hand. Correct?

If I roll a 12, the modified result is 5, and my opponent must choose to return to his hand at a minimum:

Lieutenant of Dol Guldur

OR

Lagduf and Snaga

OR

Lagduf and Radbug

OR

Radbug and Snaga

Alternatively, if my opponent wanted to for some reason, he could return an even higher mind total of characters to his hand (up to and including the entire company).

Do I have this right?

This card seems very powerful since, unlike a card like Call of Home (which could fail to bounce a character), this card is virtually guaranteed to bounce at least one character every time it is played. :?

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Konrad Klar
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Re: (Un)happy Blows

Post by Konrad Klar » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:49 pm

the Jabberwock wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:24 pm
So, if I roll a 2, the modified result is -5, and my opponent must choose any 1 character to return to his hand. Is this correct?

If I roll a 7, the modified result is 0, and again my opponent must choose any 1 character to return to his hand. Correct?
No and no.
Total mind of 0 characters is a number greater than -5 and equal to 0.
the Jabberwock wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:24 pm
Alternatively, if my opponent wanted to for some reason, he could return an even higher mind total of characters to his hand (up to and including the entire company).
Yes.
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the Jabberwock
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Re: (Un)happy Blows

Post by the Jabberwock » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:02 am

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:49 pm
the Jabberwock wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:24 pm
So, if I roll a 2, the modified result is -5, and my opponent must choose any 1 character to return to his hand. Is this correct?

If I roll a 7, the modified result is 0, and again my opponent must choose any 1 character to return to his hand. Correct?
No and no.
Total mind of 0 characters is a number greater than -5 and equal to 0.
So essentially then I would have to roll an 8 or better (against orcs and trolls) to ensure that my opponent was forced to return a character to his hand? Okay, this card is not nearly as powerful then as I thought.

I will say, however, that is seems unlikely that ICE designed this card with the intent to allow the player to choose 0 characters, even though it does neuter an otherwise very powerful card. :roll:

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Re: (Un)happy Blows

Post by Konrad Klar » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:05 am

Zero fits in term of "any number". :)
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the Jabberwock
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Re: (Un)happy Blows

Post by the Jabberwock » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:17 am

Konrad Klar wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:05 am
Zero fits in term of "any number". :)
Of course, of course it does. I get it. :)
Thanks for the clarification.

Just saying.... I don't think ICE ever expected their cards to be interpreted in such a lawyer-esque fashion. :shock:
Else they would have been more clear with their wording.

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Re: (Un)happy Blows

Post by dirhaval » Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:59 pm

I for years thought this hazard was too powerful and thus ignored it.
The card's rarity is R2.
There are two ways I think the card can be interpreted.


1) return "any" character to hand can include zero, which means that the card is useless for many reasons.
However, the sentence begins with "If available." The math-magician in me reads that as, "count the number of characters first, then
what ever value you have greater than zero, then you much choose any (above zero) characters"

2) a card that can force at least once character to be taken to hand.

I think this hazard was made to encourage using low-mind, non-unique overts as sacrifices for the card with 2 MP overts in the company.
and limit power companies as stated in this thread roaming the land.
or
encourage the use of mind rings or spirit rings to reduce the mind
or
remove a character from the company so future hazards are more lethal
n.b. Pierced by Many Wounds
or
remove your own hazards from a character so to recycle those hazards before exhaustion
n.b. Lure of Expedience, Covetous Thoughts, Foolish Words are all on Shagrat.
but there is a character with Scrolls of Isildur and another with High Helm. I want those hazards in
my discard pile now so to recycle those hazards.
or
aid the removing of those influence destruction hazards (Rebel-Talk) in MELE
n.b. I have Rebel-Talk on Radbug while moving back to Minas Morgul. Good, I will take the orc to hand and discard that nasty hazard.

IMHO

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