SoF & Can't Be Duplicated

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rezwits
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SoF & Can't Be Duplicated

Post by rezwits » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:56 am

I was playing last September, and one of my favorite moves with Saruman, resulted in a dispute.

The controversy was that if you play Sacrifice of Form and bring your Wizard back into play, I could not play SoF again.

I see that SoF has:

May not be duplicated on a given Wizard.

But the line:
Discard the Wizard (i.e., he becomes unrevealed) and any non-item cards he controls.
along with this [CRF]:
--------
Are FW cards like Many-coloured Robes and The Grey Hat [Permanent-events] also discarded when you play Sacrifice of Form ?
*** Yes.
--------
I was of the understanding that the initial SoF would be discarded, because:
Place this card on Saruman if he is in play.(Many-colured Robes) [and]
return his items to him and place Sacrifice of Form with him (SoF).
i.e. Similar...

Otherwise how do I get Saruman of many colors, to use Sacrifice Form over and over?

Is Crown of Flowers the only way?

Laters...

So, in summary, the playing effect of the card and the permanent part of the card are the same "May not be duplicated on a given Wizard?"
Last edited by rezwits on Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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Konrad Klar
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Re: SoF, again.

Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:39 am

rezwits wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:56 am
Discard the Wizard (i.e., he becomes unrevealed) and any non-item cards he controls.
along with this [CRF]:
--------
Are FW cards like Many-coloured Robes and The Grey Hat [Permanent-events] also discarded when you play Sacrifice of Form ?
*** Yes.
This looks like some ruling, not a CRF entry.
rezwits wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:56 am
So, in summary, the playing effect of the card and the permanent part of the card are the same "May not be duplicated on a given Wizard?"
An act of playing (declaring) of a card that "may not be duplicated on some XYZ" is not the same as effect of the card in play that "may not be duplicated on some XYZ".
Player may declare multiple copies of such card in the same chain of effects, but second and next to resolve copy will fizzle. Player may not declare an another copy of such card on a XYZ, if first is in play on the XYZ.
rezwits wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:56 am
Is Crown of Flowers the only way?
There is other method, but it is against a ruling that says that discarding a Wizard is active condition of SoF.
Prevent a Wizard from being discarded (e.g. using Magical Harp). Then he will not be discarded in result of SoF.
A copy of SoF will stay in play but not on the Wizard, maybe hosting some items.
Then another copy of SoF may be played on the same Wizard.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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Bandobras Took
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Re: SoF, again.

Post by Bandobras Took » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:18 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:39 am
An act of playing (declaring) of a card that "may not be duplicated on some XYZ" is not the same as effect of the card in play that "may not be duplicated on some XYZ".
Player may declare multiple copies of such card in the same chain of effects, but second and next to resolve copy will fizzle. Player may not declare an another copy of such card on a XYZ, if first is in play on the XYZ.
I'm not certain I understand the difference.
MELE, Legal Play of Cards wrote:In all cases, if a card "cannot be duplicated," a second copy of that card cannot be declared - unless the first copy of the card is targeted for removal earlier in the same chain of effects when the second copy is played.
This seems to make no distinction.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Konrad Klar
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Re: SoF, again.

Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:43 pm

Effects of an card, including "cannot be duplicated" is not in play, if the card is not in play (including that it is merely declared).
CRF. Rulings by Term, Cannot be Duplicated wrote:Annotation 11 (modified from its original version): Some cards cannot be duplicated
in limited cases -- generally on a specific target. Multiple copies of these cards or their
effects may be in play normally, so long as each applies to a different target. A card
that cannot be duplicated can be played when a copy is already in play only if the
copy in play
is currently being targeted by an effect that will discard it.
Underline and bold mine.

Makes a difference?
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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rezwits
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Re: SoF, again.

Post by rezwits » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:24 pm

k, thanks
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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Bandobras Took
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Re: SoF, again.

Post by Bandobras Took » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:15 pm

@ Konrad:

Okay, I understand what you're saying now.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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rezwits
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SoF and Doors/Gates

Post by rezwits » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:54 pm

So hey guys:

You are saying that if I have a Wizard with Sacrifice of Form, I CAN'T play Sacrifice of Form again, to Discard the Wizard and the Sacrifice? Correct?

The reason I ask this is because, I have always played:

If I have Doors of Night or Gates of Morning in play and my opponent plays twilight on either (D/G, and I have another environment in play along with it) , I could respond by playing Doors/Gates, to cancel JUST his Twilight.

But now this doesn't make sense, that I can do that, because Doors/Gates state very clearly:
Cannot be duplicated.

But here is why once again I SAY I CAN play Sacrifice, because:
May not be duplicated on a given Wizard.

THE ONLY WAY, that this can even be PUT on my Wizard, is if he gets discarded, then gets put back and via:

If the Wizard is put back into play, return his items to him and place Sacrifice of Form with him.

So a yeah, we can keep playing Sacrifice of Form... in my mind.
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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rezwits
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Re: SoF, can't be duplicated!

Post by rezwits » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:52 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:43 pm
Effects of an card, including "cannot be duplicated" is not in play, if the card is not in play (including that it is merely declared).
CRF. Rulings by Term, Cannot be Duplicated wrote:Annotation 11 (modified from its original version): Some cards cannot be duplicated
in limited cases -- generally on a specific target. Multiple copies of these cards or their
effects may be in play normally, so long as each applies to a different target. A card
that cannot be duplicated can be played when a copy is already in play only if the
copy in play
is currently being targeted by an effect that will discard it.
Underline and bold mine.

Makes a difference?
K, but there is a difference between:

Cannot be duplicated.
Cannot be duplicated on the same company.
Cannot be duplicated on a given character.
Cannot be duplicated on your faction.
etc...
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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Konrad Klar
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Re: SoF & Can't Be Duplicated

Post by Konrad Klar » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:45 am

Yes, there is.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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rezwits
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Re: SoF & Can't Be Duplicated

Post by rezwits » Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:15 pm

And in the The Taming of Sméagol, there is a difference between:

Cannot be duplicated ON..
vs
Cannot be duplicated BY...

‘No! not on it,’ said Frodo, looking down at him with stern pity. ‘All you wish is to see it and touch it, if you can, though you know it would drive you mad. Not on it. Swear by it, if you will. For you know where it is. Yes, you know, Sméagol. It is before you.’
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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