The Will of Sauron & Peril Returned

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Thorsten the Traveller
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The Will of Sauron & Peril Returned

Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:25 pm

quick question as break from these deep fundamental rules discussions :wink: .
The Will of Sauron: " ...Discard this card if Doors of Night leaves play,..."
Peril Returned: "If Gates of Morning is not in play, Doors of Night is considered to be in play."
So what if Doors of Night leaves play, e.g. through use of Twilight, while Peril Returned is in play (and Gates of Morning is not)? One has a situation in which both Doors of Night leaves play, while Doors of Night is still considered to be in play. Am I correct to assume that the fact of the Doors of Night card leaving play means WoS is still discarded?
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Re: The Will of Sauron & Peril Returned

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:02 am

When Peril Returned is in play and Gates of Morning effect is not in play then Doors of Night effect is considered to be in play.
Discarding from play any particular copy of Doors of Night card does not change that, i.e. Doors of Night effect is stil considered to be in play.
If a card Doors of Night is removed from active play it does not (necessarily) mean that Doors of Night effect leaves play.
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Re: The Will of Sauron & Peril Returned

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:04 am

By similar logic:
CRF, Errata (Cards), Will of Sauron wrote:Long-events are only discarded if Will of Sauron ceases to be in play, not if one
particular card leaves play.
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Re: The Will of Sauron & Peril Returned

Post by Bandobras Took » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:17 am

Will of Sauron does indeed check whether Doors leaves play, not whether it is in play.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Re: The Will of Sauron & Peril Returned

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:12 am

Bandobras Took wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:17 am
Will of Sauron does indeed check whether Doors leaves play, not whether it is in play.
So if Doors of Night effect created by Peril Returned satisfies condition of playing the Will of Sauron, why discarding from play a card Doors of Night, while Doors of Night effect remains in play, would cause discarding the Will of Sauron?
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Re: The Will of Sauron & Peril Returned

Post by Bandobras Took » Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:24 pm

Because the conditions under which a card is playable are unrelated to any passive condition which causes a card to be discarded.

If the action is playing Will of Sauron, you check for the presence of Doors of Night.

If the action is discarding Will of Sauron, you check for whether Doors of Night leaves play.

If the action is playing Palantir of Osgiliath, you check for the site phase, untapped Greater Item site, and untapped character.

If the action is discarding Palantir of Osgiliath, you check for a moving company and an insufficient number of characters in the company.

Will of Sauron uses Doors of Night for two checks, but the two checks don't mean the same thing simply because they name the same card.

They produced an erratum for the handling of discarding long events, but nothing similar was done for the discarding of Will of Sauron itself. Therefore the original condition stands.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Re: The Will of Sauron & Peril Returned

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:36 pm

Bandobras Took wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:24 pm
They produced an erratum for the handling of discarding long events, but nothing similar was done for the discarding of Will of Sauron itself. Therefore the original condition stands.
The Will of Sauron entry is not marked as an erratum.

Simply put: if XYZ remains in play, the XYZ does not leave a play.
The only thing that must be figured out is which one Doors of Night is checked here and there - a presence/leaving from play of the card, or of the effect.

What if Peril Returned card is in play, a Gates of Morning card is not in play and Gates of Morning card comes in play?
Does it cause discarding the Will of Sauron?
If so, then leaving from play of Doors of Night effect is checked, not leaving from play of Doors of Night card.
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Re: The Will of Sauron & Peril Returned

Post by Bandobras Took » Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:23 am

Konrad Klar wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:36 pm
Bandobras Took wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:24 pm
They produced an erratum for the handling of discarding long events, but nothing similar was done for the discarding of Will of Sauron itself. Therefore the original condition stands.
The Will of Sauron entry is not marked as an erratum.
It nevertheless changes the language. They flat-out state that "Will of Sauron leaves play" does not cause a discard, which is stated on Will of Sauron. "Ceases to be in play" does not check for the action of leaving play, but checks for an instance of being in play.
Simply put: if XYZ remains in play, the XYZ does not leave a play.
Black Horse wrote:Return its controller to your hand if Black Horse leaves active play.
So a given RW is only returned to hand if every copy of Black Horse -- of both players -- leaves play?
What if Peril Returned card is in play, a Gates of Morning card is not in play and Gates of Morning card comes in play?
Does it cause discarding the Will of Sauron?
No. Doors of Night is not considered to be in play if Gates of Morning comes into play, but it did not leave play.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Re: The Will of Sauron & Peril Returned

Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:09 am

Bandobras Took wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:23 am
It nevertheless changes the language.
I agree (and admit), it is in fact an erratum. It is a big difference between "is discarded" and "ceases to be in play"; without it the card would refer to itself, like Black Horse. Effects, like Doors of Night effect created by Peril Returned, cannot be discarded at all.
Bandobras Took wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:23 am
So a given RW is only returned to hand if every copy of Black Horse -- of both players -- leaves play?
No. Because the card references to itself*.
For Cannot Be Duplicated cards there are no multiple instances of given card in play, even if (under some conditions**) there are multiple copies of given card in play.

*)
BTW. It does not work.
CRF, Rulings by Term, Passive Conditions wrote:A card causing an action as a result of a passive condition must be in play when the
action resolves, or else the action is canceled.
**)
CRF, Rulings by Term, Cannot be Duplicated wrote:A card
that cannot be duplicated can be played when a copy is already in play only if the
copy in play is currently being targeted by an effect that will discard it.
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Re: The Will of Sauron & Peril Returned

Post by Bandobras Took » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:04 pm

Yes, it's another example of a card that doesn't actually work. :)

There is a disagreement of interpretation here; it may best be adjudicated by the NetRep.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Re: The Will of Sauron & Peril Returned

Post by rezwits » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:29 am

Can you even play Doors of Night (the card), if someone has already dropped Peril & Will?

Because it seems the rules junkies always want to go over, Card vs Effect vs etc...

How can you put Doors of Night into play if it (effect OR card) Cannot be Duplicated?

So, if Peril & Will are in play, you can't put Doors of Night into play because it's effect and/or card would be in play, but they can't be duplicated.

The only way would be to drop Gates of Morning, in which, that would clear the Doors Effect, then Will of Sauron would go away and then so would Peril, and then drop Doors over Gates, but your Peril+Will are gone.

Then in conclusion, if Doors of Night is in play, you shouldn't be able to play Peril Returned, the Doors of Night EFFECT CANNOT BE DUPLICATED...

If you add all these effect + card discrepancies, they should all COUNT...

n.b. it would be like going (almost) Peril Peril Will, you can't play the 2nd Peril because CANNOT BE DUPLICATED effect of Doors...
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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Re: The Will of Sauron & Peril Returned

Post by Konrad Klar » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:18 am

Doors of Night effect by itself does nothing. Some things check for its presence, or whether it leaves play, or whether it ceases to be in play.
Also the effect does not make any statements, e.g. does not state that it cannot be duplicated (but for some reasons never is).

The card Doors of Night states that it cannot be duplicated and (when it comes in play) causes discarding an resources environment events, and cancel its ongoing effects.

Multiple factors simultaneously may retain Doors of Night effect in play. May be it multiple cards Peril Returned and one Doors of Night card.
Discarding only one of them does not remove Doors of Night effect.
It is comparable to six character company that possesses Palantir of Osgiliath. Any three characters in the company make it not below four character company (that is condition of retaining the Palantir while moving).
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Re: The Will of Sauron & Peril Returned

Post by rezwits » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:26 pm

I just look at the difference between these two, somewhat "mirror" cards.

Peril Returned
If Gates of Morning is not in play, Doors of Night is considered to be in play. If Gates of Morning is in play, it is considered to be out of play while Peril returned is in play. Gates of Morning may still be removed normally (e.g., through the use of Twilight, Doors of Night, etc.). "A shadow came out of dark places far away, and the bones were stirred in the mounds."-LotRI

Crown of Flowers
Environment. Crown of Flowers has no effect until you play a resource with it. You can play one resource from your hand with this card. The resource is considered to be in play as though Gates of Morning were in play and Doors of Night were not. Crown of Flowers does not affect the interpretation of any card except the resource played with it. Discard Crown of Flowers when the resource is discarded. Discard the resource if Crown of Flowers is discarded.

The bold parts are what I am interested in.

Peril Returned to me is played as if a Hologram version of Doors of Night is sitting on the table i.e. effect+card, by itself tho.

Crown of Flowers to me is played as if just the EFFECT (and possibly Hologram of the card) is in play, BUT it is ATTACHED to the Resource you are playing with Crown.

I just think of "Effects" especially when referring to the CARD being in play, as a Special Hologram of it being there, so everything about the card hits.

IDK... Like you don't consider the part of Doors where it says, "When Doors of Night is played, all resource environment cards in play are immediately discarded, and all resource environment effects are canceled." right?

Because Doors itself was not "Played" just the condition that it's IN play exist. You didn't actually PLAY Doors. But the second sentence,"Cannot be duplicated" is part of it's effect, no?
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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Re: The Will of Sauron & Peril Returned

Post by rezwits » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:49 pm

This is how I also play, Peril.

If I play Peril and my opponent plays Gates during his turn, then I play Doors, it cancels his Gates, but my Doors doesn't "stick" or stay in play. Because as soon as Gates leaves play the Peril, in play already, (effect/hologram of the card Doors of Night), is sitting right there, and the Doors I played cannot "stick."

hmm... IDK I guess I just respect the "Cannot be duplicated" or "Unique", key words/phrases too much?
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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Re: The Will of Sauron & Peril Returned

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:05 am

If Gates of Morning card (or hypothetical effect that creates it) is in play, first Peril Returned removes Gates of Morning effects from play, next Peril Returned card creates Doors of Night effect in play.
rezwits wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:49 pm
If I play Peril and my opponent plays Gates during his turn, then I play Doors, it cancels his Gates, but my Doors doesn't "stick" or stay in play. Because as soon as Gates leaves play the Peril, in play already, (effect/hologram of the card Doors of Night), is sitting right there, and the Doors I played cannot "stick."
Timing is unclear here.
No one sits in your mind. Please explain precise order of declaring, and resolving mentioned cards.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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