URD & LE Manifestations

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rezwits
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Re: URD & LE Manifestations

Post by rezwits » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:09 pm

My statements, were mostly just common sense, not quoting rules.

As with this, I am actually quoting a rule or CRF:

START QUOTE

4. Say I have Ren as my ring-wraith. Using a mode card, I travel to the same site as a hero company. Can I play Ren Unleashed, A Malady W/O Healing and attack in CVCC in the same site phase? Please describe any limitations.
*** Yes, you can play all 3 in the same site phase.

END QUOTE (I only have CRF, from 1 to 124)

To me this was a CRF, that was clearly stated to clear ANY complications.

To me it's plain and simple, I never even needed this mentioned CRF ruling.

To COMPLETELY understand, that A Malady Without Healing, is UTTERLY without a shadow of doubt, an Attack Card, for use by a Shadow-magic using character against other characters is beyond OBVIOUS (and yes during the site phase you CAN use it against any of the non-excluded character "races", even your own.

If there is ANY judge, net-rep, or other official MECCG body, that thinks this card is otherwise, without question, needs to DISBARMENT, or to just be ignored.

COMMON SENSE, 100% clear... IDK how to state it in any other way.

This is why I am pretty much DONE, with post 2007-ish, arguments and conversation, basically DIARRHEA!

Battling over WORDS and DEFINITION, over and over instead of PLAYING the GAME. Rules Lawyers, basically destroying any attempt at keeping the game alive.

I am just tired of 2007-ish-2017s. And what happened to a game that WAS, and is in MY mind CLEAR.

ICE made the game, they WERE NOT 100% PERFECT in it's creation, but to BUTCHER the mistakes they made 20+ years ago, and cyclically go over them and over them.

I am GLAD, 100% they made paradoxical mistakes to keep Rules Lawyers heads spinning in circles. Who can't get OUT.

But I am good, "English and Good Ole Common Sense!" Is my motto, when it comes to MECCG Rules. And then I will adopt DC.

I am gonna make decks and keep on playing (or trying thereof). And even TRY to get new players!!

HAVE FUN, and PEACE! (I cannot deny the OBVIOUS)
Last edited by rezwits on Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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Re: URD & LE Manifestations

Post by rezwits » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:13 pm

Kjeld wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:55 pm
Bandobras Took wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:43 pm
Regarding A Malady Without Healing:
CRF, Targets wrote:You cannot target an opponent's character or resources with your own resources.
This is unambiguous. Nothing on Malady overrides that. I have been consistently and repeatedly assured by various NetRep teams that a card must explicitly override the rules or the rules remain in force.
For argument's sake, could not the line on Malady that reads,
A Malady Without Healing wrote:Playable during the site phase on a non-Ringwraith, non-Wizard character at the same site as a shadow-magic using character.
be interpreted as explicitly overriding the quoted CRF rule? It states, unambiguously I would argue, the exact conditions under which the card is playable. These are the conditions, no more, no less. Thus it seems to me this line indicates Malady can be played on any character at the site so long as that character is not a Ringwraith or Wizard (or FW or Balrog).

Edit. That said, what is ambiguous, in this case, is whether you could just play the card on any company with a non-Ringwraith, non-Wizard character AND a shadow-magic using character. Would be rather amusing to play it on an opponent's company that just happens to have a shadow-magic using character.
EXACTLY, and one other note, I did make sure of, CvCC is stated as DURING the Site Phase. Even tho it is supposedly the last PART/STEP of the Site Phase.


Oh and the reason I went so far back, to CRF #4 was to re-enforce:
rezwits wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:17 pm
This card and the rulings over the years, clearly demonstrate the BLATANT disrespect,
and disregard for I.C.E. and the game they designed from 1993-2000.
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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Re: URD & LE Manifestations

Post by rezwits » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:26 pm

Oh my I almost forgot before I go.

I did have quite a laugh at the quote and/or inclination of:

KILLING YOUR OWN CHARACTER and getting the MPs??

WOW...

What GAME are you playing?? that was hilarious, that's what this MOST Beautiful card, was intended for?

So that even if you "have to" kill your OWN character, you still get the MPs??

What GAME are you playing?? that was hilarious...

n.b. Oh and sorry for any bad English, mis-typing, or etc. I was just absolutely blown away, livid, dying of laughter, and frustrated that things have gotten this bad. I, 100% agree with you TOOK on the "How do you think I feel" comment, heh

1993-2000, with 7+ year of Rulings till 2007, then it seems to have all went to HELL...
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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Re: URD & LE Manifestations

Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:50 pm

Kjeld wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:55 pm
For argument's sake, could not the line on Malady that reads,

A Malady Without Healing wrote:
Playable during the site phase on a non-Ringwraith, non-Wizard character at the same site as a shadow-magic using character.

be interpreted as explicitly overriding the quoted CRF rule? It states, unambiguously I would argue, the exact conditions under which the card is playable. These are the conditions, no more, no less. Thus it seems to me this line indicates Malady can be played on any character at the site so long as that character is not a Ringwraith or Wizard (or FW or Balrog).
Yes, they are the exact conditions under which the card is playable.
The Riddle Game is "Playable during site phase on a character at the same site as one of opponent's companies".
They are a limitations. They are not extensions. A player cannot play the card on its own character if there is not any opponent company at the same site. A player cannot play the card on an opponent's character just because the character is at the same site as one of opponent's companies.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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What I go by...(Rules)

Post by rezwits » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:07 am

IDK,

Here are my rules (English Version):

1. Read the Seven (7) I.C.E. rules PDFs that are exact replicas of the rules Inserts that came/come with the products (Starters, Boosters, and Decks), and make cheat sheets if needed for reminders.

2. Read the cards, use common sense and your best English reading skills.

3. Try to remember this game was created over 20+ years ago, and make TONS of exceptions for errors, and mistakes in wording.

4. If need be, use the later "Actual card printings that try to solve some of those mistakes", ex. Slayer.

5. If you have access to CoE Rulings 1-123 (the URD can be a substitute), in a nice little file, take them with a grain of salt if you feel they can "help". After about 2005 they start to fall apart.

6. This is KEY: Ignore most or all website conversations/arguments about any of the rules...

7. Have FUN! and actually PLAY! Even if SOLO!

THANKS
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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Re: URD & LE Manifestations

Post by the Jabberwock » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:21 am

Bandobras Took wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:43 pm
Let me know when you're as tired of it as I am. :)

To return to where we started, if you're tired of all this, I still might be several years ahead of you in that department. :)
Bandobras Took wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:49 pm
Incidentally, the URD needs to be updated to say that cards *and rules* that apply to a Ringwraith apply to a Balrog in the Glossary.

I hope the NetRep does it some day; I'd hate to step on his toes.
rezwits wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:09 pm

I am just tired of 2007-ish-2017s. And what happened to a game that WAS, and is in MY mind CLEAR.

ICE made the game, they WERE NOT 100% PERFECT in it's creation, but to BUTCHER the mistakes they made 20+ years ago, and cyclically go over them and over them.
rezwits wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:26 pm

1993-2000, with 7+ year of Rulings till 2007, then it seems to have all went to HELL...
I have recently finished writing a revision to The Charter and it will be posted to the forum in the near future for review and a vote.

I may also just decide to volunteer for the Net Rep position myself in order to make sure that things get done and peace and order is restored to the galaxy. =D

Please be patient. I know that you (rezwits) and others are frustrated with the current Rules situation, but there is action taking place behind the scenes. It just takes awhile to get things done, rather Entish around here. =)

A Malady Without Healing will definitely get a final clarification that it deserves, as well as many other hot topic / debated issues.

Please stay tuned and engaged!

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Re: URD & LE Manifestations

Post by Bandobras Took » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:24 am

On that note, the URD is currently hosted on my Google drive; it might be better to move it to the CoE website rather than have it remain in the hands of a third party. :)
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly.

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Re: URD & LE Manifestations

Post by Bandobras Took » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:35 am

Kjeld wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:55 pm
Bandobras Took wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:43 pm
Regarding A Malady Without Healing:
CRF, Targets wrote:You cannot target an opponent's character or resources with your own resources.
This is unambiguous. Nothing on Malady overrides that. I have been consistently and repeatedly assured by various NetRep teams that a card must explicitly override the rules or the rules remain in force.
For argument's sake, could not the line on Malady that reads,
A Malady Without Healing wrote:Playable during the site phase on a non-Ringwraith, non-Wizard character at the same site as a shadow-magic using character.
be interpreted as explicitly overriding the quoted CRF rule? It states, unambiguously I would argue, the exact conditions under which the card is playable. These are the conditions, no more, no less. Thus it seems to me this line indicates Malady can be played on any character at the site so long as that character is not a Ringwraith or Wizard (or FW or Balrog).
No. It cannot be interpreted that way. Otherwise a card like Despair of the Heart, which says, "Playable on a non-Hobbit, non-Wizard, non-Ringwraith character." would have to be interpreted as overriding any rules which would prevent its play, such as it having to be the movement/hazard phase, the "only one corruption card each turn" rule, etc. Likewise, a card like Book of Mazarbul would be able to be played during any phase. The assumption that a rule doesn't apply because it doesn't show up on a given card is an implicit override, not an explicit one.

To explicitly override a rule, the card must state that it does so. A good example is We Have Come To Kill.
A character may be brought into play under general or direct influence at any Shadow-hold, Ruins & Lairs, or Border-hold. This does not count against the one character per turn limit.
Both the home site limitation and the limit of one character card play are explicitly overridden.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly.

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Re: URD & LE Manifestations

Post by the Jabberwock » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:45 pm

Bandobras Took wrote:On that note, the URD is currently hosted on my Google drive; it might be better to move it to the CoE website rather than have it remain in the hands of a third party. :)
Thank you Bandobras,

I will send you a PM.

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Re: URD & LE Manifestations

Post by the Jabberwock » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:18 am

Bandobras Took wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:24 am
On that note, the URD is currently hosted on my Google drive; it might be better to move it to the CoE website rather than have it remain in the hands of a third party. :)
Will you please check to see if your Inbox is full? The last PM I sent you is not displaying in my Outbox or my Sent folder. Thanks!

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CARDS overwrite the rules themselves!

Post by rezwits » Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:56 am

Bandobras Took wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:35 am

To explicitly override a rule, the card must state that it does so. A good example is We Have Come To Kill.
See and this is where it all went to HELL. In my book, and in most games, the rules are in the "Books."

THEN, the Cards come alone and DO WHATEVER THE HELL they WANT.

Most of the rulings I have read as of late (past 6-7 years) always get defeated for their actual use, because "Some other card, says this or that" which is malarky.

When a card is printed, that card has ABSOLUTE overwriting of all rules, they don't have to rewrite all the RULES?!? and declare every damn exception.

They are supposed to do what the say they do.

Just because SOME cards, (Like 20 for god's sake) had explicit OVERWRITING of some rules, to make THEIR POWER CLEAR, every other card, was unable to be used to it's full potential because it didn't write out every possible exception!

WOW

I mean seriously, count up how many cards EXPLICITLY overwrite a/the rule(s), compared to how many cards that don't.

But man, in ESSENCE each card allows you to do something NOT IN THE RULEBOOK, therefore overwriting the RULES.

WOW

It's like every time there discussion about ANY CARD, it's always like, "Well if you go back to this CARD, blah blah blah"

Each card should have it's OWN MERIT!!! They are Equal, no other card should interfere with the ability of another card, ONLY THE RULES IN THE BOOKS.

Unless it is an explicit MODIFICATION of a same card, such a Slayer, once again.

Why would you compare what one card can do to what another card can do?

Unless for instance, 1 card said:

Environment. Playable only if Gates of Morning is in play. The prowess of each character is modified by +1.

AND THE OTHER CARD SAID:

Environment. Playable only if Gates of Morning is in play. The prowess of each character is modified by +2.

Then yeah compare them. Other then that, it's like all these rules are based of a handful of cards and their wording, because THEY EXPLICITLY overwrote the rules.

DUDES CARDS don't WORK that way.

A CARD inherently just flat out overwrites the rules, GEEZUS

No wonder there are so many rules problems!!!
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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Re: URD & LE Manifestations

Post by Bandobras Took » Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:00 pm

1) Calm down.

2) All right. Agents no longer need to be at the same site as the target in order to influence them. You can play however many corruption cards you want on a character in a turn. The hazard limit means nothing. You can move through eighteen regions in a single movement if you want. You don't have to tap character to play items. It doesn't have to be the site phase. You can play characters wherever you want, whenever you want. All cards are worth full marshalling points for Fallen Wizards. The Balrog isn't considered to be a Ringwraith for the purpose of card texts/rules. You can influence items from a Wizard/RW. Since the cards overwrite all the rules just by existing, we don't actually need rules, right?

3)
Just because SOME cards, (Like 20 for god's sake) had explicit OVERWRITING of some rules, to make THEIR POWER CLEAR, every other card, was unable to be used to it's full potential because it didn't write out every possible exception!
Alatar explicitly overwrites the rules about card draw.
Pallando explicitly overwrites the rules about hand size.
Radagast explicitly overwrites the rules about card draw.
Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pippin, and Robin Smallburrow overwrite the rules about character play.
Cirdan, Elrond, and Galadriel overwrite the rules about hand size.
Bill the Pony overwrites the rules about needing an untapped site.
Gwaihir overwrites standard movement rules.
Goldberry, Leaflock, Quickbeam, Skinbark, and Treebeard overwrite the rules about assigning strikes.
Roac the Raven overwrites the rule of where one may attempt to influence a faction.

Look at that. I got to twenty, and I didn't even make through one set. I didn't even make it through all the *resources.* I didn't even have to do it for God's sake; I just did it while waiting for a program on my computer to finish updating.

Like I said, calm down. And please try to realize that a ruleset based on imaginary rules, as you posted previously, and wildly inaccurate guesses, as you have just posted here, won't do much for the health of the game.

And the philosophy that cards don't have to abide by the rules just because you don't want them to would, as I'm sure you'll agree, be disastrous for any sort of healthy playing environment. See point 2. I'd rather actually have to go to a site and face automatic-attacks to play items. And I certainly don't want agents to be able to influence anything from anywhere just because a given card says they may make an influence attempt.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly.

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Re: URD & LE Manifestations

Post by rezwits » Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:51 pm

Bandobras Took wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:00 pm
Alatar explicitly overwrites the rules about card draw.
Pallando explicitly overwrites the rules about hand size.
Radagast explicitly overwrites the rules about card draw.
Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pippin, and Robin Smallburrow overwrite the rules about character play.
Cirdan, Elrond, and Galadriel overwrite the rules about hand size.
Bill the Pony overwrites the rules about needing an untapped site.
Gwaihir overwrites standard movement rules.
Goldberry, Leaflock, Quickbeam, Skinbark, and Treebeard overwrite the rules about assigning strikes.
Roac the Raven overwrites the rule of where one may attempt to influence a faction.
1). Hehe "I am CALM!" hehe jk

2). Nah, I am calming down, trying.

3). I just look at the "current" state of being a "new player," which I am not, and it's freaking DAUNTING.

4). I just don't want the game to be so discouraging to someone "trying" to learn to play.

5). I also come from the "old school ways" of where the card is always right, UNLESS, serious mistake in text, or "play card, you win"

6). I do think there is a threshold which some people can tolerate and which some people can't.
a). Example, if I play a 6 card combo and just flat out win, is that broken? what about 4? what about 3? 2? 1? etc...

7). All an all I think we need to step back tho and stop, "going over each card with a micro-scope, and the analyzation of the texts"

8). The cards you listed don't have "specific flat out" citations of specific rules they are overwriting, I may have missed "some". But like I said ALL (there are always exceptions) cards overwrite the rules.

9). I will use your guys' favorite example that you cite numerous times. A Chance Meeting / We Have Come to Kill.

A Chance Meeting says:
A character (even a Hobbit) may be brought into play with direct influence at any Free-hold [F], Border-hold , or Ruins & Lairs [R].

We Have Come to Kill says:
A character may be brought into play under general or direct influence at any Shadow-hold [S], Ruins & Lairs [R], or Border-hold . This does not count against the one character per turn limit.

WHCtK specifically states that "said rule, one character per turn limit" is to be ignored.
A Chance Meeting does not.

To me WHCtK is just being redundant. i.e. A Chance Meeting GIVES YOU IT'S ability, that's why we USE/Play our cards ;)
For instance, I would say you could play 3x A Chance Meetings on the same turn, or 3x WHCtK.

But, A Chance Meeting doesn't overwrite "Rulebook Rule", it overwrites a "Card Limitation, i.e. the Hobbit's limitations"

In any case, this is just another thing I am trying to state. Cards just overwrite the RULES flat out, SOME have disclaimers only to HELP clear things up. But just because a card, doesn't have 5-6 declarations below the cards "main ability", doesn't mean the card(s) don't do what they are supposed to.

BTW, once again Took, I love the URD ;) Seriously, because I see the work you went thru like 5-6 (or whatever the case may be) CRF rulings of a card, and went to the meat and potatoes that only lately apply, in most cases, awesome work!

I love the placement of the Prone to Violence picture, in the CvCC section (page 47, because of ambiguity). :D

Ok, enjoy the weekend!! PEACE OUT!
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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Re: URD & LE Manifestations

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:45 pm

Strictly speaking there is no "Hobbit limitation". There is no rule that restrict them to be brought in play only at their home sites (or in starting company).
A Chance Meeting does not address the actual limitation that lies in texts of all Hobbit cards and in text of Fram Farmson.
Similarly:
CRF, Rulings by Term, Agent wrote:Only Elven agents can move to a site that is a Wizardhaven.
fails to address the real issue. Only Elven agents can move to a site that is a Wizardhaven because all current Elven agents have special ability that allows them to move to Haven, not just because they are Elves.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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Re: URD & LE Manifestations

Post by rezwits » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:43 am

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:45 pm
Strictly speaking there is no "Hobbit limitation". There is no rule that restrict them to be brought in play only at their home sites (or in starting company).
A Chance Meeting does not address the actual limitation that lies in texts of all Hobbit cards and in text of Fram Farmson.
Similarly:
CRF, Rulings by Term, Agent wrote:Only Elven agents can move to a site that is a Wizardhaven.
fails to address the real issue. Only Elven agents can move to a site that is a Wizardhaven because all current Elven agents have special ability that allows them to move to Haven, not just because they are Elves.
Right, what I am saying is, there is pseudo "Character Type" prototyping, for Hobbits, which is briefly mentioned in A Chance Meeting...
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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