Resources targetting opponent characters

The place to ask all rules questions related to MECCG.
User avatar
Mordakai
Posts: 221
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:38 am

Resources targetting opponent characters

Post by Mordakai » Mon Apr 04, 2016 5:46 pm

I have read in the Middle Earth Universal Rules Document 4.2 (the most up-to-date, I think) that Malady is no longer able to target opponent's companies. Is this official? I remember that deck in Worlds 2013...

If that is the case, what about Ren Unleashed? If I cannot target opponent characters whith this card, what is the use of it?

Am I missing something?

Thanks
C'mon, not the Elves of Lindon AGAIN...

User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 1988
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland
Contact:

Re: Resources targetting opponent characters

Post by Konrad Klar » Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:57 pm

Not sure which interpretation deserves on being called official and what decides about it.
A Malady Without Healing wrote:Magic. Shadow-magic. Playable during the site phase on a non-Ringwraith, non-Wizard character at the same site as a shadow-magic using character. Target character must make a corruption check modified by -1 followed by a body check (modified by +1 if tapped). If target character is a hero and is eliminated by these checks, you receive his kill marshalling points. Unless the shadow-magic user is a Ringwraith, he makes a corruption check modified by -5.
The Riddle Game wrote:Riddling attempt. Playable during the site phase on a character at the same site as one of opponent's companies. Tap the character Opponent chooses a character from his company to play the riddle game. Each player makes a riddling roll (or draws a #) modified by +2 if his character is a sage and by +1 if a Hobbit (re-roll ties). The player with the highest result wins. He then names two cards and the other player reveals his hand If any of the named cards are revealed, they are immediately discarded.
Ren Unleashed wrote:Playable on Ren the Ringwraith (as your Ringwraith). All characters at the same site as Ren must make a corruption check modified by -2. We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.-LotRI
If "playable on character at the same site" would extend a range of available for a resource targets on characters of opponent, then it would be possible to play The Riddle Game on opponent's character, saving on tapping of its own character and not caring about a presence of sage, or Hobbit in own company and even about presence of own company "at the same site as one of opponent's companies". And both players could choose the same character; why not?

Ren the Ringwraith (as your Ringwraith) is only character necessary to play Ren Unleashed. All other characters that have bad luck of being at the same site, are affected by Ren Unleashed. They are not targets, nor other conditions. Similarly Doors of Night does not target any resource environment event, or effect. None of them is required to play Doors of Night, any that will appear in play between declaration and resolution of Doors of Night will be affected, and if any of them will disappear from play between declaration and resolution it will not prevent the Doors of Night from being resolved.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 2618
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

Re: Resources targetting opponent characters

Post by Bandobras Took » Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:22 pm

Mordakai wrote:I have read in the Middle Earth Universal Rules Document 4.2 (the most up-to-date, I think) that Malady is no longer able to target opponent's companies. Is this official? I remember that deck in Worlds 2013...
Editor's notes in the URD are (or should be) clearly marked as such; these are commentaries to aid in understanding difficult cards or why cards are allowed to be played in a way that expressly breaks the rules. See also my signature.
If that is the case, what about Ren Unleashed? If I cannot target opponent characters whith this card, what is the use of it?
Ren unleashed doesn't target because it acts through an entire class of entities.
Annotation 3: Long-events and certain other cards do not have targets because they are not played out through one specific entity, i.e., they generally affect an entire class of things.
In order for something to be a target, it must be specified by number and type.
All characters at the same site as Ren must make a corruption check modified by -2.
"All" does not specify a number, as opposed to the words "a" and "the."
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly.

User avatar
Mordakai
Posts: 221
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:38 am

Re: Resources targetting opponent characters

Post by Mordakai » Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:15 am

Understood the thing about Ren Unleashed.

About Malady, is legal then, if Editor's Note are not binding...
C'mon, not the Elves of Lindon AGAIN...

User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 2618
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

Re: Resources targetting opponent characters

Post by Bandobras Took » Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:18 pm

Mordakai wrote:Understood the thing about Ren Unleashed.

About Malady, is legal then, if Editor's Note are not binding...
Yes. Broken and stupid, but definitely legal.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly.

User avatar
Mordakai
Posts: 221
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:38 am

Re: Resources targetting opponent characters

Post by Mordakai » Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:43 pm

Well, kinda broken, but as I read it, I honestly say that MY common sense tells me that it is its purpose... I think it's broken because of Akhorahil and his Unleashed card, not by itself.
C'mon, not the Elves of Lindon AGAIN...

User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 2618
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

Re: Resources targetting opponent characters

Post by Bandobras Took » Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:44 pm

Since your opponent can neither tap nor use resources to aid with the corruption check, it's pretty broken regardless of who's doing it, especially if you're running with corruption in your hazard portion.

For example.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly.

User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 1988
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland
Contact:

Re: Resources targetting opponent characters

Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:03 pm

Why opponent's characters could not tap in support to cc (If it would be allowed to play A Malady Without Healing on opponent's character)?
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 2618
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

Re: Resources targetting opponent characters

Post by Bandobras Took » Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:29 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:Why opponent's characters could not tap in support to cc (If it would be allowed to play A Malady Without Healing on opponent's character)?
Oops. I meant it would be unlikely, since your characters are usually tapped out at the end of a turn.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly.

Jabberwocky
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:38 am

Re: Resources targetting opponent characters

Post by Jabberwocky » Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:29 pm

I am very confused. I'm hoping one of you fine gentlemen will clarify for me.

Malady is a minion resource, thus it can not be played in a hero/wizard deck.

The card clearly states that "if target character is a hero"..... which means this card was meant to be able to target hero
Characters.

Thus, what is the situation that allows this card to target a hero character as intended, if in fact the argument is being made that minion resources can't target hero characters?

What was the INTENT of this card when it was made?

I think I'm missing something.

Thanks

User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 2618
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

Re: Resources targetting opponent characters

Post by Bandobras Took » Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:34 pm

Jabberwocky wrote:I am very confused. I'm hoping one of you fine gentlemen will clarify for me.

Malady is a minion resource, thus it can not be played in a hero/wizard deck.

The card clearly states that "if target character is a hero"..... which means this card was meant to be able to target hero
Characters.

Thus, what is the situation that allows this card to target a hero character as intended, if in fact the argument is being made that minion resources can't target hero characters?

What was the INTENT of this card when it was made?

I think I'm missing something.

Thanks
White Hand, where minion resources can target your own hero characters.

Just as minion agents were introduced in Dark Minions, but they already knew that they were going to use them in a non-agent fashion in MELE.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly.

User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 1988
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland
Contact:

Re: Resources targetting opponent characters

Post by Konrad Klar » Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:12 am

Jabberwocky wrote:Thus, what is the situation that allows this card to target a hero character as intended, if in fact the argument is being made that minion resources can't target hero characters?
Argument is not that minion resources cannot target hero characters. Argument is that resources may not target opponent's characters and opponent's resources.
Jabberwocky wrote:What was the INTENT of this card when it was made?
Probably it was planned as playable on opponent's character. But playability conditions in texts of the card contain only restrictions, nothing what extends beyond default a range of possible targets.

Similarly
Spies Feared wrote:Scout or Ranger only. Playable on a Shadow-hold [S] if one of your scouts is there or on a Ruins & Lairs [R] if one of your rangers is there. An automatic-attack is created at the site against minion companies: Orcs-5 strikes with 8 prowess (detainment). Additionally, automatic-attacks at the site are duplicated (including the new one) against all companies. Discard when site is discarded or returned to your location deck.
This time the authors were not courteous to write "at all version of the site", so there is nothing to beat:
CRF, Rulings by Term, Site wrote:A permanent-event played on a site affects only the copy of the site it is played on,
unless otherwise specified. A permanent-event not played on a site affects all versions
of affected sites.
Hero events cannot target or affect minion sites, and vice versa. News of the Shire is
an exception.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

Jabberwocky
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:38 am

Re: Resources targetting opponent characters

Post by Jabberwocky » Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:20 am

Bandobras Took wrote:White Hand, where minion resources can target your own hero characters.

Just as minion agents were introduced in Dark Minions, but they already knew that they were going to use them in a non-agent fashion in MELE.
I agree that agents were released in Dark Minions with the intent to be able to use them in a non-agent fashion in MELE. But they were not dead cards on arrival with Dark Minions. They still had a very playable purpose as Agent Hazards.

If you are making the argument that Malady Without Healing was released in MELE with the intent to be used 2 sets later in The White Hand, I think that is quite a stretch. This card would then be useless when released in MELE, which makes no sense.

Furthermore, even if you do somehow make an argument for playability with Fallen Wizards only....
why would you want to use this card on your own hero characters? You may be able to come up with a scenario or 2 where it might be useful, but it would still be a worthless card an overwhelming majority of the time.

What set was the rule released in that says resources may not be played on opponents characters or resources?

If the Akhorahil combo you speak of is truly broken and is hurting gameplay, then that particular combo should be addressed by the CoE.
Konrad Klar wrote: Argument is not that minion resources cannot target hero characters. Argument is that resources may not target opponent's characters and opponent's resources.
Sorry, that's what I meant to say.
Konrad Klar wrote: Probably it was planned as playable on opponent's character. But playability conditions in texts of the card contain only restrictions, nothing what extends beyond default a range of possible targets.
As Mordakai pointed out above.... common sense indicates that this card was intended to target hero character opponents and that is how the card should be played.

IMO, common sense and irrefutable intent should always trump the general rules when it comes to interpreting cards and play legality.
Konrad Klar wrote: Similarly
"Spies Feared" Scout or Ranger only. Playable on a Shadow-hold [S] if one of your scouts is there or on a Ruins & Lairs [R] if one of your rangers is there. An automatic-attack is created at the site against minion companies: Orcs-5 strikes with 8 prowess (detainment). Additionally, automatic-attacks at the site are duplicated (including the new one) against all companies. Discard when site is discarded or returned to your location deck.
This time the authors were not courteous to write "at all version of the site", so there is nothing to beat:
CRF, Rulings by Term, Site wrote:A permanent-event played on a site affects only the copy of the site it is played on,
unless otherwise specified. A permanent-event not played on a site affects all versions
of affected sites.
Hero events cannot target or affect minion sites, and vice versa. News of the Shire is
an exception.
A fair point. Again, I would ask... what is the clear intention of this card? And is the card functional if you restrict it to follow the CRF or set released basic rules? If the card is no longer of any use when you bind it by such rules, then an a common sense exception needs to be made. It is well known that MECCG is a fun game but is burdened by complex and sometimes contradictory rules. IMO, it is our job as the living representation of this game to FIX such bungled rules and make this a playable game. One big step in the right direction would be to play each card as it was clearly intended to be played, and then use all of the other rules to supplement cards which don't become pointless if held to the rules and CRF.

User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 1988
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland
Contact:

Re: Resources targetting opponent characters

Post by Konrad Klar » Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:19 am

Jabberwocky wrote:A fair point. Again, I would ask... what is the clear intention of this card? And is the card functional if you restrict it to follow the CRF or set released basic rules? If the card is no longer of any use when you bind it by such rules, then an a common sense exception needs to be made.
Why not just make errata instead? Not necessarily official - for any interested group of players.
Not obeying, in some cases, a some restrictions because the restrictions does not allow a particular card to function as intended, has its price.
Next time, when someone will try to use a card in not typical but compliant with rules way, "this was not intended to use it in such way" argument may appear again.
The same when someone will try to prevent a playing/resolution of the card in not typical way.
Because restrictions and exceptions works for all sides.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 2618
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

Re: Resources targetting opponent characters

Post by Bandobras Took » Fri Apr 08, 2016 2:03 pm

Jabberwocky wrote:If you are making the argument that Malady Without Healing was released in MELE with the intent to be used 2 sets later in The White Hand, I think that is quite a stretch. This card would then be useless when released in MELE, which makes no sense.
Malady Without Healing wrote:Magic. Shadow-magic. Playable during the site phase on a non-Ringwraith, non-Wizard character at the same site as a shadow-magic-using character. Target character must make a corruption check modified by -1 followed by a body check (modified by +1 if tapped). If target character is a hero and is eliminated by these checks, you receive his kill marshalling points. Unless the shadow-magic-user is a Ringwraith, he makes a corruption check modified by -5.
The italicized text is the only part of the card that is useless until White Hand.

Malady is an admittedly brutal way of attempting to get rid of characters that are doing you more harm than good (So You've Come Back springs to mind, here). Certainly a niche use, but I can think of cards that are even more niche use than that.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly.

Post Reply

Return to “Rules Questions”