3 Questions about Influencing. One for Netrep.

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Mordan
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3 Questions about Influencing. One for Netrep.

Post by Mordan » Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:48 pm

1# What's the Bonus of Dain II when using the card Token of Goodwill against a Men attack? Card says unused direct influence. Does the +1 bonus direct influence apply? So 3 or 4?
It is not an influence attempt.

2# When influencing the Ice-Orcs faction that is already in play, Can you influence it at any site playable? If can only be influenced at the site at which it was played, how do you remember where it was influenced.
Same for the Hero Animal Factions.

3# What is the netrep decision about influencing a Wizard's ally or follower? Can you do it or not? Many people rely on the Balrog rule summary and are not aware of the CoE 35. They wouldn't believe it to be the case. I'm not sure though you can influence an item controlled by a Wizard.

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Bandobras Took
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Re: 3 Questions about Influencing. One for Netrep.

Post by Bandobras Took » Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:19 pm

Not sure about 1.

2) You need merely be at a site where the faction is playable, according to the rules; not the site where the faction was played.

3) The current ruling is that MEBA 17 is correct and meant to override previous rules. This does bring up the problem of the MEBA turn summary overriding other previous rules like RW movement, multiple dragon manifestations, etc. CoE 117 upheld the MEBA turn summary as overriding previous rulebooks, thus overturning any previous CoE rulings.
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Mordan
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Re: 3 Questions about Influencing. One for Netrep.

Post by Mordan » Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:47 pm

reading your asnwer and

this http://www.councilofelrond.org/wiki/index.php/Digest_35

and when i read the URD, i'm confused..
You may not make influence attempts against cards an avatar controls. (MEBA 17)
● Oh, yes you can. (CoE 35) The game summary is just that -- a summary, not
new rules, which are clearly delineated. Therefore, the MELE rules will take
precedence over the MEBA game summary, but not over the new rules presented
in the MEBA booklet. (CoE 35)
Can you influence a Wizard's follower?

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Bandobras Took
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Re: 3 Questions about Influencing. One for Netrep.

Post by Bandobras Took » Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:36 pm

http://www.meccg.net/dforum/viewtopic.p ... hlight=117
3. A question has arisen concerning what resources a player may legally attempt to influence away from his opponent. METW, MELE, and MEBA rules books seem to disagree on the scope of what a player may influence.
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You may not attempt to influence away any of the following from your opponent: his avatar, an ally controlled by his avatar, an item controlled by his avatar, or a follower of his avatar.
As this came later than #35, it is the most current ruling and is therefore official for all CoE-sanctioned events. For further clarification, see my sig. ;)
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Mordan
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Re: 3 Questions about Influencing. One for Netrep.

Post by Mordan » Sun Dec 04, 2011 5:11 pm

Before the Balrog you could influence a Wizard's follower

After the Balrog, you can't anymore

why was this rule introduced in the Balrog? and confirmed afterwards?

It is pretty dumb. Maybe make it harder but straight impossible??

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Re: 3 Questions about Influencing. One for Netrep.

Post by miguel » Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:52 am

Mordan wrote:1# What's the Bonus of Dain II when using the card Token of Goodwill against a Men attack? Card says unused direct influence. Does the +1 bonus direct influence apply? So 3 or 4?
It is not an influence attempt.
As you said, it's not an influence attempt. Therefore Dain II's bonus against men does not apply.

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Bandobras Took
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Re: 3 Questions about Influencing. One for Netrep.

Post by Bandobras Took » Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:22 pm

Mordan wrote:Before the Balrog you could influence a Wizard's follower

After the Balrog, you can't anymore

why was this rule introduced in the Balrog? and confirmed afterwards?

It is pretty dumb. Maybe make it harder but straight impossible??
Once you get down into the details, most of what ICE wrote was pretty dumb. The NetRep's often difficult task is to make consistent sense of oftentimes contradictory rules.

As to why the rule was introduced, that's anybody's guess. For the purposes of making a ruling, what matters is only that it was introduced.

Privately, I agree with you and CoE 35, and should we ever play a game together I will be more than happy to allow you to influence my opponent's follower or ally. For any sanctioned event, such as a tournament, we'll have to abide by the rulings of the NetRep.

Vastor's DC environment is probably the best place to get a "harder but possible" solution.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly.

Mordan
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Re: 3 Questions about Influencing. One for Netrep.

Post by Mordan » Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:09 pm

miguel wrote:
Mordan wrote:1# What's the Bonus of Dain II when using the card Token of Goodwill against a Men attack? Card says unused direct influence. Does the +1 bonus direct influence apply? So 3 or 4?
It is not an influence attempt.
As you said, it's not an influence attempt. Therefore Dain II's bonus against men does not apply.
i'm still confused. because Dain II bonus applies to control man using Direct Influence and controlling human character is not an influence check. So?


Another question that came up today

I'm fully aware of the rule that a wizard cannot influence opponent on his first turn.

Does that applies when a wizard comes back after a sacrifice of form?

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Bandobras Took
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Re: 3 Questions about Influencing. One for Netrep.

Post by Bandobras Took » Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:32 pm

Offering Attempt. Playable on a diplomat whose company is facing an attack of the type listed below. Target diplomat makes a corruption check. If he does not fail, discard an item from his company (as listed below), and make a roll (or draw a #) adding the diplomat's unused direct influence. If the result is greater than the listed values, the attack is cancelled, and you may take one resource from your play deck or discard pile into your hand (reshuffle play deck if searched). Against a Dragon: greater item/5, against a Drake: major item/6, against Men, Slayer, or any Agent: minor item/7.
Unique. +2 direct influence against Iron Hill Dwarves, +2 prowess against Orcs. +1 direct influence against Men and Man factions.
The bolded word is key. For Dain's bonus to apply, the DI must be used "against" the entity in question. Since the roll that adds the DI is not an influence check and the card does not state that you do so, you are not actually using DI against the entity -- DI is simply a modification to the roll.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly.

Mordan
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Re: 3 Questions about Influencing. One for Netrep.

Post by Mordan » Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:36 pm

Bandobras Took wrote:
Offering Attempt. Playable on a diplomat whose company is facing an attack of the type listed below. Target diplomat makes a corruption check. If he does not fail, discard an item from his company (as listed below), and make a roll (or draw a #) adding the diplomat's unused direct influence. If the result is greater than the listed values, the attack is cancelled, and you may take one resource from your play deck or discard pile into your hand (reshuffle play deck if searched). Against a Dragon: greater item/5, against a Drake: major item/6, against Men, Slayer, or any Agent: minor item/7.
Unique. +2 direct influence against Iron Hill Dwarves, +2 prowess against Orcs. +1 direct influence against Men and Man factions.
The bolded word is key. For Dain's bonus to apply, the DI must be used "against" the entity in question. Since the roll that adds the DI is not an influence check and the card does not state that you do so, you are not actually using DI against the entity -- DI is simply a modification to the roll.
well ok :)

funny though that Beorn told me Dain II was best for this card. Now I use Cirdan. Only 8 in mind and 4 DI.

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the Jabberwock
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Re: 3 Questions about Influencing. One for Netrep.

Post by the Jabberwock » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:23 am

Bandobras Took wrote:
Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:32 pm
Offering Attempt. Playable on a diplomat whose company is facing an attack of the type listed below. Target diplomat makes a corruption check. If he does not fail, discard an item from his company (as listed below), and make a roll (or draw a #) adding the diplomat's unused direct influence. If the result is greater than the listed values, the attack is cancelled, and you may take one resource from your play deck or discard pile into your hand (reshuffle play deck if searched). Against a Dragon: greater item/5, against a Drake: major item/6, against Men, Slayer, or any Agent: minor item/7.
Unique. +2 direct influence against Iron Hill Dwarves, +2 prowess against Orcs. +1 direct influence against Men and Man factions.
The bolded word is key. For Dain's bonus to apply, the DI must be used "against" the entity in question. Since the roll that adds the DI is not an influence check and the card does not state that you do so, you are not actually using DI against the entity -- DI is simply a modification to the roll.
This doesn't make any thematic sense at all. Presumably Dain II is good at influencing/coaxing/coercing the race of men and thus he has a built in D.I. bonus for it. Token of Goodwill is an Offering Attempt where you are trying to convince an entity not to attack you by offering them an item. Why would Dain II's skills at influencing men not apply in this situation when facing an attack by men? Makes no sense.

The text of Token of Goodwill even says "against Men, Slayer, or any Agent." I believe this ruling should be changed, it feels completely wrong.

Related question: If I have Dain II as my diplomat, and Wacho is his follower. Can I choose to have Wacho use the "+1 against Men" portion of Dain's D.I. in order to apply 2 points of bonus towards the Token of Goodwill? Or must Wacho use 2 points of his general (non-race specific) D.I., leaving me with only 1 point to apply towards the Token of Goodwill?

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Re: 3 Questions about Influencing. One for Netrep.

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:23 am

the Jabberwock wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:23 am
The text of Token of Goodwill even says "against Men, Slayer, or any Agent." I believe this ruling should be changed, it feels completely wrong.
I agree. The roll is made against.
the Jabberwock wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:23 am
Related question: If I have Dain II as my diplomat, and Wacho is his follower. Can I choose to have Wacho use the "+1 against Men" portion of Dain's D.I. in order to apply 2 points of bonus towards the Token of Goodwill? Or must Wacho use 2 points of his general (non-race specific) D.I., leaving me with only 1 point to apply towards the Token of Goodwill?
Character can use restricted DI for controlling a characters of given race, and at the same time use unused part of unrestricted DI for something else.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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Bandobras Took
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Re: 3 Questions about Influencing. One for Netrep.

Post by Bandobras Took » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:29 pm

I'm not arguing that the ruling is valid so much as saying that I can see the reasoning that led to it.

In this case, "against" whatever refers to the attack type the Diplomat's company is facing.
Gulla wrote:+1 prowess against Orcs and Elves.
I don't think anybody's going to claim this applies during influence attempts. :)
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Re: 3 Questions about Influencing. One for Netrep.

Post by the Jabberwock » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:07 am

Bandobras Took wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:29 pm
I'm not arguing that the ruling is valid so much as saying that I can see the reasoning that led to it.

In this case, "against" whatever refers to the attack type the Diplomat's company is facing.
Gulla wrote:+1 prowess against Orcs and Elves.
I don't think anybody's going to claim this applies during influence attempts. :)
The fact that the word against is used in card texts both when referring to combat and influence attempts does not mean that any use of the word against is applied the same in all situations. Clearly a +1 prowess against Orcs and Elves is referring to a combat bonus. That is what prowess is primarily used for. On the other hand, a bonus for Direct Influence is primarily used for influencing things. Both thematically and technically (Token of Goodwill uses the word against) - a character's D.I. race specific bonus should apply while using this card to cancel an attack of the appropriate type.

The answer given above by miguel regarding Token of Goodwill is wrong.

And since you mentioned the prowess bonus... what about using Muster? If the normal character prowess of the warrior is 4, should a +1 bonus be given if the warrior is attempting to influence Orcs or Elves (or whatever the race specific bonus his card text states he has)?

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Re: 3 Questions about Influencing. One for Netrep.

Post by Bandobras Took » Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:39 am

Again, the "against" on Token refers to the type of attack the company is facing. So far as I know, a +2 to DI doesn't apply to attack types.

Likewise, a bonus to prowess against a given creature type/race only applies when facing a strike of the given type/race.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly.

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