Long Dark Reach and cancelling the attack created by it

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Eyelid
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Long Dark Reach and cancelling the attack created by it

Post by Eyelid » Sun Sep 06, 2009 6:20 pm

Hello to the community,

I have two questions about Long Dark Reach.

1) The first is just to make sure I understand how cancelling the attack created by Long Dark Reach works.

Long Dark Reach reads:
Playable on a moving company with at least one Wilderness [w] in its site path if you have at least 10 cards in your play deck. Reveal the top seven cards of your play deck. One revealed Nazgûl, Dragon, or a non-unique creature (your choice) immediately attacks the company (regardless of its playability requirements). The creature must be be playable in a region besides Coastal Sea [c]. If the creature could not normally be played on the company, modify its prowess by -4. Shuffle all unused cards and return them to the top of your play deck.
In Council of Elrond Rulings Digest #38, an example was given by which a Regiment of Black Crows tapped to cancel a Dragon attack.

Regiment of Black Crows reads:
Playable at a tapped or untapped non-Under-deeps Ruins and Lairs [R]. May not be attacked. Discard this ally if controlling character is wounded. Tap this ally to cancel a hazard creature attack not keyed to a site and to put the creature's card back into its player's hand. Cannot be duplicated on a given company.

It seems the attack created by Long Dark Reach is not actually keyed to anything, is that correct?
So for example, I could use a Concealment to cancel such an attack, but I couldn't use Elven Cloak to cancel one of its strikes, right?

Elven Cloak reads:
Tap Elven Cloak to cancel one strike against bearer; the strike must be keyed to Wilderness [w]. May not be duplicated on a given character. "
Concealment reads:
Scout only. Tap scout to cancel one attack against his company.

2) And secondly, but not least: Can Long Dark Reach be played on-guard?


Thanks for your help.
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marcos
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Post by marcos » Sun Sep 06, 2009 6:33 pm

1) that is correct, if the attack is not keyed to anything, then you can't cancel it with elven cloak but you can cancel it with concealment

2) No, it can't, it is playable on a "moving" company. During the site phase, the company is not moving anymore and therefore there is no wilderness to fullfill the requirements of LDR to be played

Eyelid
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Post by Eyelid » Sun Sep 06, 2009 6:46 pm

Thank you very much, Marcos, for taking the time to reply!
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Konrad Klar
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Post by Konrad Klar » Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:28 am

Attacks created by events are not keyed to anything (unless text of event states otherwise). LDR is not such case. It doest not create attack. It causes that revealed creature is attacking*.
Text of LDR says "If the creature could not normally be played on the company modify its prowess by -4".
It does not automatically mean the creature that could normally be played on the company is not keyed to anything too.
Do you disagree with it, Marcos?

*) And there is disagreement whether creature attacking with LDR is played or no. According to the Official Rulings Digest 120 it is not played because it is not introduced into play from hand but it is attacking from revealed state.
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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:15 am

MELE Rules wrote:Creature Cards
You may use a creature card to directly attack one of your opponent's companies. Such an attack can occur only if one of the following criterion is met:
· The company is at a specific site at which the creature's card text says it can be played.
· The company's site of origin or new site is in a region where the creature's card text says it can be played.
· One of the site symbols on the creature's card matches the site that the company moved to (i.e., the new site) or stayed at (i.e., if the company did not move).
· At least one of the region symbols on the creature's card matches one of the region types the company moved through this turn (see below). If the creature's card has two region symbols of the same type (i.e., a deep Wilderness creature), then the company must have moved through at least two regions of that same type.

If a creature satisfies more than one of these conditions, you must choose (when you play the creature) one of these conditions that the attack is "keyed to." The effects of certain cards are based upon the region or site type that a creature is keyed to.
Keying rules only apply to directly using a creature card to attack an opponent.

Long Dark Reach is an indirect means of using a creature card to create an attack.

Keying rules do not apply.

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Post by marcos » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:59 am

Konrad Klar wrote:Attacks created by events are not keyed to anything (unless text of event states otherwise). LDR is not such case. It doest not create attack. It causes that revealed creature is attacking*.
Text of LDR says "If the creature could not normally be played on the company modify its prowess by -4".
It does not automatically mean the creature that could normally be played on the company is not keyed to anything too.
Do you disagree with it, Marcos?

*) And there is disagreement whether creature attacking with LDR is played or no. According to the Official Rulings Digest 120 it is not played because it is not introduced into play from hand but it is attacking from revealed state.
I don't disagree with it, but still, LDR doesn't key the attack to anything, doesn't it?

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Konrad Klar
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Post by Konrad Klar » Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:09 pm

Bandobras Took wrote:Keying rules only apply to directly using a creature card to attack an opponent.

Long Dark Reach is an indirect means of using a creature card to create an attack.

Keying rules do not apply.
So Undead attacking as result of Exhalation of Decay or Nazgul attacking as result of In Great Wrath are not keyed to anything too?
marcos wrote:I don't disagree with it, but still, LDR doesn't key the attack to anything, doesn't it?
You are assuming the LDR attacks, not creature? If so, why creature is placed in MP/Discard pile when defeated, not LDR?

Or you are assuming that because both creatures that could normally attack and creatures that could not normally attack a company may be used with LDR, both must be trated in the same way - as not keyed to anything?
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Post by marcos » Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:21 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:
Bandobras Took wrote:Keying rules only apply to directly using a creature card to attack an opponent.

Long Dark Reach is an indirect means of using a creature card to create an attack.

Keying rules do not apply.
So Undead attacking as result of Exhalation of Decay or Nazgul attacking as result of In Great Wrath are not keyed to anything too?
marcos wrote:I don't disagree with it, but still, LDR doesn't key the attack to anything, doesn't it?
You are assuming the LDR attacks, not creature? If so, why creature is placed in MP/Discard pile when defeated, not LDR?

Or you are assuming that because both creatures that could normally attack and creatures that could not normally attack a company may be used with LDR, both must be trated in the same way - as not keyed to anything?
No, i am not assuming that LDR attacks, i am assuming that they are not keyed to anything, are they?

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Post by Konrad Klar » Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:08 pm

marcos wrote:No, i am not assuming that LDR attacks, i am assuming that they are not keyed to anything, are they?
Text of LDR does not say the attacking creature is keyed to something.
Maybe my impression was wrong (only creature that could not be played normally is non keyed).
I want to know how to interpreting situations caused by cards like:
Long Dark Reach,
Fever of Unrest,
Exhalation of Decay,
In Great Wrath.

All are working in the same way (even if EoD and IGW are playable on creatures in discard pile that could immediatelly attack).
If no, what are criteria of distingushing of ones and others.
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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:24 pm

I stand by my interpretation of the keying rules: such cards as Exhalation/In Great Wrath do not use the keying rules because you are not directly attacking the company with the creature card.

However, I will admit that this interpretation depends a great deal on what they meant by "directly."

There are other attacks that are not keyed to anything, though; both Agent attacks and Automatic Attacks need not be keyed.

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Post by Konrad Klar » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:51 pm

Ok. I can accept it, at least until new facts will appear that would add something to this question.
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the Jabberwock
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Re: Long Dark Reach and cancelling the attack created by it

Post by the Jabberwock » Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:43 am

In a recent game, this question came up:

I have a company traveling through 3 regions, all 3 are wilderness. My opponent plays Long Dark Reach and attacks with a creature. Can I use Elven Cloak to cancel one of the strikes?

Reading this thread, it would appear that I can NOT use the cloak, although it doesn't sound like there was a clear consensus on this topic.

It has been 9 years since this thread was written. Would you guys still agree on the interpretation that a creature attacking with LDR is not keyed to anything and thus Elven Cloak may not be used?

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Long Dark Reach and cancelling the attack created by it

Post by Konrad Klar » Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:33 am

the Jabberwock wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:43 am
Can I use Elven Cloak to cancel one of the strikes?
No.
the Jabberwock wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:43 am
It has been 9 years since this thread was written. Would you guys still agree on the interpretation that a creature attacking with LDR is not keyed to anything and thus Elven Cloak may not be used?
marcos and Bandobras Took convinced me.
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the Jabberwock
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Re: Long Dark Reach and cancelling the attack created by it

Post by the Jabberwock » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:25 pm

Okay, thank you!

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