Fallen wizard special rules

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panotxa
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Fallen wizard special rules

Post by panotxa » Mon May 02, 2016 1:21 pm

Dear (and always helpful) community,

I don’t know it this is the best section to post this, because it’s not a specific question.

I’ve never played as a fallen wizard, and I played few times against one of them (those times I was focused on surviving, not on understanding how the heck they are supposed to play…). :oops:

The time has come to give it a try. I managed to gather all the fallen wizard related data in one document and sum it up in a way to make it more understandable or newbie friendly (on my mind, at least).

This is the doc:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/s6gpu5pkoyym3 ... .docx?dl=0

I’m getting really stuck on the pages 5 and 6 (a table of what kind of resources are playable), it will really help me a lot if somebody can just check if its ok, and give me examples on every kind of resource (I barely get examples for four items of the list).

I don’t understand the specific rule too: “Non-spells and non-magic resource events must target/affect same alignment site or resource card”. Any example of a spell or magic resources that can affect the same alignment site/resource?

Thank you very much,

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Bandobras Took
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Re: Fallen wizard special rules

Post by Bandobras Took » Mon May 02, 2016 2:22 pm

If a resource is not a spell/magic card, it must target/affect the same alignment resource/site.

If a resource is a spell or magic card, it can target whatever it wants of your resources/sites.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly.

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Bandobras Took
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Re: Fallen wizard special rules

Post by Bandobras Took » Mon May 02, 2016 2:45 pm

Examples:

Hero Event - Site/Resource: Free to Choose may target Aiglos, but not Great Black Axe.
Minion Event - Site/Resource: Hold Rebuilt and Repaired may target Minion Buhr Widu, but not Hero Buhr Widu.

Hero Event - Company: Fellowship may not be played on a company containing Ugluk.
Minion Event - Company: Going Ever Under Dark may be played on an all-Hobbit company.

Hero Item That Normally Taps Site: Dagger of Westernesse normally taps a site when it is played. Therefore, it can only be played at a Hero Site, even when using a card such as Catch an Elusive Scent, which allows the play of an item without tapping the site. Same for Saw-Toothed Blade and Thorough Search.

Minion Resource That Requires Tapping For Effect: I can't think of any parallels to Praise to Elbereth, offhand. Most "tap later for effect" Minion Resources seem to already be playable on a character rather than a company/generically. Hail of Darts is close, but it alters an effect of tapping; it's not tapping for an effect.

For Hero Item: Palantir of Osgiliath, if held by a minion character, still will be discarded if company size is too low during movement. Likewise, a company still needs to make the roll to play Ithil-Stone.

Hero Affects Auto-Attack: Quiet Lands can be played on Minion Dancing Spire to halve strikes.

Minion Affects Auto-Attack: Veils of Shadow can be played at Dol Guldur to reduce all attacks to one strike.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Fallen wizard special rules

Post by Konrad Klar » Mon May 02, 2016 7:34 pm

Bandobras Took wrote:If a resource is not a spell/magic card, it must target/affect the same alignment resource/site.

If a resource is a spell or magic card, it can target whatever it wants of your resources/sites.
Unless a resource is a spell/magic card:
A hero resource event cannot target/affect a minion resource/site.
A minion resource event cannot target/affect a hero resource/site.

Otherwise resource event may target/affect a resource/site of different alignment. Non-event resource may affect a resource/site of any alignment.

For example:
Hall of Fire (hero resource event) may target and affect FW The White Towers (FW site card).
Hidden Haven (FW resource event) may target and affect hero/minion [-me_rl-] site card.
Secret Book (minion resource item) may be discarded to untap hero Beorn's House site.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

panotxa
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Re: Fallen wizard special rules

Post by panotxa » Mon May 02, 2016 8:51 pm

Thank you guys!
Bandobras Took wrote:Examples:

Minion Resource That Requires Tapping For Effect: I can't think of any parallels to Praise to Elbereth, offhand. Most "tap later for effect" Minion Resources seem to already be playable on a character rather than a company/generically. Hail of Darts is close, but it alters an effect of tapping; it's not tapping for an effect.
Catch an Elusive Scent would be a minion resource that requires tapping for an effect, I guess.
Konrad Klar wrote: Unless a resource is a spell/magic card:
A hero resource event cannot target/affect a minion resource/site.
A minion resource event cannot target/affect a hero resource/site.

Otherwise resource event may target/affect a resource/site of different alignment. Non-event resource may affect a resource/site of any alignment.

For example:
Hall of Fire (hero resource event) may target and affect FW The White Towers (FW site card).
Hidden Haven (FW resource event) may target and affect hero/minion [-me_rl-] site card.
Secret Book (minion resource item) may be discarded to untap hero Beorn's House site.
I'll have to check my list because I think I'm not taking into consideration these cases or I have listed them wrongly...

If you see any other flaw, mistake, area of improvement... :)

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Fallen wizard special rules

Post by Konrad Klar » Mon May 02, 2016 9:57 pm

I have just downloaded your document.
 Non-spells and non-magic resource events must target/affect same alignment site or resource card.
Original rule is:
MEWH, Getting Ready to Play wrote: Note: The restrictions below do not apply to Spells and Magic.
Targeting Site and Resource Cards— A hero resource card may not target/affect a minion site card or a minion resource card. A minion resource card may not target/affect a hero site card or a hero resource card.
Errata is:
CRF, Errata (Rules) wrote:White Hand Rules, Playing and Using Resource, Targeting Site and Resource Cards:
change both instances of "resource card may not target/affect" to "resource event card
may not target/affect."
P.S.
 A hero resource may not target a minion character (e.g., Orc and Troll characters may not use Block, Escape, etc.); but a minion resource may target a hero character (e.g., We Have Come to Kill can target hero characters).
I do not want to dig this problem in this thread, but We Have Come to Kill, and Escape as examples of a resources that target a character are questionable.
Anyway that are ICE's words.
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panotxa
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Re: Fallen wizard special rules

Post by panotxa » Tue May 03, 2016 5:53 am

Document updated :)
Konrad Klar wrote: Otherwise resource event may target/affect a resource/site of different alignment. Non-event resource may affect a resource/site of any alignment.
Could you give me an example on the highlighted sentence?

Thank you again guys, my aim is to have a quick reference that covers all possible scenarios in that table, thus any piece of advice/hint is welcome.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Fallen wizard special rules

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue May 03, 2016 2:12 pm

Secret Book (minion resource item) may be discarded to untap hero Beorn's House site.
Gollum may be tapped to discard a minion The One Ring (and Gollum).
A Panoply of Wings may be discarded to make information playable at minion site (where A Panoply of Wings is playable).
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

panotxa
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Re: Fallen wizard special rules

Post by panotxa » Tue May 03, 2016 2:33 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:Secret Book (minion resource item) may be discarded to untap hero Beorn's House site.
Gollum may be tapped to discard a minion The One Ring (and Gollum).
A Panoply of Wings may be discarded to make information playable at minion site (where A Panoply of Wings is playable).
Thx! Doc updated :)

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Fallen wizard special rules

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue May 03, 2016 6:31 pm

I will be pernickety again.
 You may use minion or hero resources to affect the automatic-attack at a site, regardless of the site's alignment.
CRF, Rulings by Term, Fallen-wizard wrote:A Fallen-wizard may use a minion resource to cancel the automatic-attack at a hero
site, and vice versa.
It is because that resources (most of them) are not being played on site, but on automatic-attack, so do not violate other restrictions. So this is just clarification rather than separate rule (exception from other restrictions).
Quiet Lands can be played on minion Dancing Spire to halve strikes
Veils of Shadow can be played at minion Dol Guldur to reduce all attacks to one strike
Quiet Lands is being played on automatic-attack at site, is not being played on site.*

Veils of Shadow is being played on sorcery-using character facing an automatic-attack. It is "playable at site" as "playable at site" is And Forth He Hastened being played on character at site. Actually both are being played on character at site.

Contrary to Quiet Lands, the Forewarned is Forearmed affects a site in first place (site is reduced to having a one automatic-attack). It affects automatic-attack in second place (an automatic-attack that remains after reduction cannot be canceled), that do not happen if the reduction does not happen. Forewarned is Forearmed does not reduce a number of automatic-attacks at minion sites. And it is not specific for FW.
CRF, Rulings by Term, Site wrote:Hero events cannot target or affect minion sites, and vice versa. News of the Shire is
an exception.
I'm sorry for not being concise.

*) For its second use (to treat [-me_sh-] as [-me_rl-] until end of turn) it is played on site, so it may not be played on minion site.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

panotxa
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Re: Fallen wizard special rules

Post by panotxa » Wed May 04, 2016 6:33 am

Thank you Konrad for your precise analysis. I’ll update my document taking in consideration your comments and trying to be more precise and consistent.

About having listed mixed rules and clarifications, my idea was to list all the possible combinations on playability and create a quick reference table. Once the table is revised (thing I’m doing now through this thread) I’ll erase the list and keep only the table.

You just blown my mind with the Forewarned is Forearmed explanation, without that I’d have just considered that it affects the AA not the site!

I can’t find an example of a minion resource (event and non-event) that cancels/affects an automatic-attack. The closer thing would be The Warg King canceling a Wolf AA in a hero site… I guess.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Fallen wizard special rules

Post by Konrad Klar » Wed May 04, 2016 7:15 am

panotxa wrote:I can’t find an example of a minion resource (event and non-event) that cancels/affects an automatic-attack. The closer thing would be The Warg King canceling a Wolf AA in a hero site… I guess.
To be clear: Veils of Shadow affects an automatic-attack(s). I did not say that it does not. I only referred to such details like: on what the card is being played, and whether it is being played at site, or not.

In short: automatic-attack at a sites are not the sites, nor parts of the sites. Fallen Wizard player is not more restricted in affecting/targeting automatic-attacks than any other player.

I think that this is whole sense of:
CRF, Rulings by Term, Fallen-wizard wrote:A Fallen-wizard may use a minion resource to cancel the automatic-attack at a hero
site, and vice versa.
CRF contains not only errata, new rules, but also many statements that can be inferred from existing rules.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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kober
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Re: Fallen wizard special rules

Post by kober » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:51 am

Konrad Klar wrote:
Mon May 02, 2016 7:34 pm
A hero resource event cannot target/affect a minion resource/site.
Does targetting an influence check on a faction resource equal to targetting the resource itelf? E.g. can Muster target/affect an influence check on Scorba Roused?
Konrad Klar wrote:
Wed May 04, 2016 7:15 am
A Fallen-wizard may use a minion resource to cancel the automatic-attack at a hero site, and vice versa.
What's your source of CRF, btw? I can't find this ruling in mine.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Fallen wizard special rules

Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:31 am

kober wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:51 am
Does targetting an influence check on a faction resource equal to targetting the resource itelf? E.g. can Muster target/affect an influence check on Scorba Roused?
Targeting an influence check against a resource does not target the resource, nor influencing character. Muster may target the influence check against Scorba Roused.
kober wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:51 am
What's your source of CRF, btw? I can't find this ruling in mine.
http://www.meccg.net/netherlands/meccg/ ... rm.html#ff
or
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8a2ko4409gp36 ... s.pdf?dl=1
(to download)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8a2ko4409gp36 ... s.pdf?dl=0
(the same but to view in browser)

Second is PDF containing the slightly older version of CRF (thanks to that, some "silent changes" that have been made in CRF are visible).
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