pre selection for VC2 (?)

Where the Virtual Boyz plan their latest capers
marcos
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Post by marcos » Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:11 pm

i missed ghosts V in the first version, and i would really like to include them as i see it is a very promising idea...

now my concern is wich suggestion should i use because there are many and all are good, also if i have to include sleepless malice V i have to take out 2 cards from the first xml version to include both ghosts and sleepless malice...

discussion can be found in this topic

any ideas?

Vastor Peredhil
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Post by Vastor Peredhil » Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:57 pm

make it a 64 cards set (so 8 x 8 cards can be printed, the way I used it for DC print sheets ;) )

mfg Nicolai

marcos
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Post by marcos » Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:11 pm

i prefer to keep it at 60, but if i cant find anything to remove i think i will increase the amount of cards as you suggested...

or simply left ghosts V for a possible VC3 :lol:

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:00 pm

Like the others I appreciate your energetic approach Marcos, but this would all be for the sake of experiment and testing, right?...

And I don't know if you noticed it or heard it from others, but the adding of the VC2 ideas has shaken up all the cards further in the list so the decks had to be redone...

Yes I did mention a few preferences for new cards and foci of attention, but that was only to kick off :wink: I'll have a look at that Hoard well Searched again.
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Post by marcos » Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:07 am

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:Like the others I appreciate your energetic approach Marcos, but this would all be for the sake of experiment and testing, right?...
of course, and the main of all is having fun :)
Thorsten the Traveller wrote:And I don't know if you noticed it or heard it from others, but the adding of the VC2 ideas has shaken up all the cards further in the list so the decks had to be redone...
i dunno whose are the others you are talking about nor wich lists are these, but if you are talking about GCCG users and decklists, then yes, i've talked to Vastor and he agreed that i should put VC2 after "Nine for mortal men" and about the decklists, you can save them by exporting a file before including the VC2 xml and the new metw.xml. Then, when you add the VC2 set, you can import such decklists and voila! all your decks are safe.

Let me know if i can be of any help if your lists have been screwed, i can send you the previous xml wich didnt include VC2 so you can export your decks before adding the new set

best!
Marcos

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:30 pm

hehe, I had only 1 deck because I only ever played one game before, so no real harm done, and I fixed the deck I wanted to play yesterday.
Look, I'm digitally challenged so I have no idea why this actually occurred, I just thought I'd draw your attention to it, if no one else had already, also to avoid such troubles in the future :wink:
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Post by marcos » Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:40 pm

it happened because the order of gccg library changed, if we include 1 or more cards in any set or put some new sets before old ones, then the order gets screwed as well as the deck lists (your decklist will show the new card that is in the same place as the old one was) . Luckly, there wont be any changes in amount of cards in existing sets so such problems wont occur again, at least that vastor adds cards to his DC sets. If i ever made another Virtual sets i will include it after Vastor's so we dont have this problem again :)

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:47 pm

yes I got that part, but I don't know why the cards are obviously tied to such slots, but that is a technical matter perhaps beyond what interests us.

Anyway, the number of cards in a possible VC2 set isn't fixed at all, so perhaps it would be best to move the set at the end of all sets, and any set after that should always come at the end too? Of course it would be more clear if related sets where next to one another, but that seems difficult then to arrange without problems, and who knows what sets Nico might devise in the future :wink:
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Post by marcos » Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:56 pm

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:yes I got that part, but I don't know why the cards are obviously tied to such slots, but that is a technical matter perhaps beyond what interests us.
would be great if cards arent tied to such slots indeed, maybe we have to contact wigy or wlk to see if that is possible, but i dont think so...

i would like to contact Joe or Jamie, to see what they think about it... BTW b_took and i played a first game with this cards and it ended in a tie. Some conclusions:

:arrow: Giants have improved but they are not unbalaced, they can be pretty well avoided, so my oppinion is thumbs up on this one
:arrow: FW saruman has improved a lot, i really liked the results
:arrow: trouble on all borders, it is just an awesome card, thumbs up as well

i hope that ben will post some of his thoughts as well[/quote]

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:10 pm

yes me and Joe have been tied in some Arda wrestling, and it took me quite a bit to get him to that as well, because he had his mind elswhere (as did I), now he seems swamped in work again.

So, good thing you and B took continued the efforts here! But, discussion about which card where etc. should not only be about the way they function, overpowered/underpowered etc., it's also a matter of what would, in our opinion, contribute most to renewing the game.

I think adding these ideas directly in gccg is very good because they can be tested, and also there's a quick overview of all the ideas, which wasn't available before, and I must admit my brain is getting rusty here. However, I think it's important that these ideas are not kind of institutionalized via gccg.

nb. Frodo mentioned he'd like to work out some of my Arda ideas into V cards, not sure if that is easily done, or if they contribute a lot actually, I might have gone quite wild with them and they're not the easiest of cards, and Arda is a very different setting, but as far as ideas go, VC2 is still very much on the drawing table...

in fact, it would be nice if we'd first get some acclaim for VC1, Worlds 08 was not a succes in this respect. Maybe a new/broadly advertised VC tourney at gccg?
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Post by marcos » Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:37 pm

So, good thing you and B took continued the efforts here! But, discussion about which card where etc. should not only be about the way they function, overpowered/underpowered etc., it's also a matter of what would, in our opinion, contribute most to renewing the game.
i agree that is why i decided to include cards that are part of a bigger strategy, like flooding, giants + earth attacks, rohan theme, ringplay, Fallen underdeeps, Fallen saruman, etc
I think adding these ideas directly in gccg is very good because they can be tested, and also there's a quick overview of all the ideas, which wasn't available before, and I must admit my brain is getting rusty here. However, I think it's important that these ideas are not kind of institutionalized via gccg.
that is what gccg subversion is all about :wink:
nb. Frodo mentioned he'd like to work out some of my Arda ideas into V cards, not sure if that is easily done, or if they contribute a lot actually, I might have gone quite wild with them and they're not the easiest of cards, and Arda is a very different setting, but as far as ideas go, VC2 is still very much on the drawing table...
I'd like to know wich ideas are those you say :)
And yes, it is very much on the drawing table, that is why we need all the help possible on play testing, oppinions, etc...
in fact, it would be nice if we'd first get some acclaim for VC1, Worlds 08 was not a succes in this respect. Maybe a new/broadly advertised VC tourney at gccg?
i plan to hold another Virtual tourney this year as i did last year, but that will be later because right now there is another tourney running (nations cup)... we'll see. As far as VC1 goes, i think it is very much completed and cards are well balanced and offer some new fun and interesting strategies... Now that players accept it or not and they give it a chance or not, is another matter of discussion wich really concerns me and the others included in Dev team as well i think, maybe we should advertise it a bit more...[/quote]

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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:08 pm

Speaking personally, the only possible way I can test any of these ideas in play is through GCCG, and having the current text available through Ctrl+H makes things much easier.

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Post by Bandobras Took » Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:19 pm

Thoughts on the game with marcos:

Trouble On All Borders indeed did a great job -- I was able to use Beorning Toll and Gondorian Rangers to great effect, which is kind of a nice change. The biggest use I see with such a card is allowing Thranduil's folk to hit the Withered Heath minion decks.

Trying out various Fallen Saruman cards, my Stage Points shot through the roof, but I got some nice MPs out of Scorba Roused and the minion Hillmen. Forge Master did an excellent job with a nice 1 MP/turn as the game dragged on, but would not have been too overpowered in a normal game where marcos beats me up one side and down the other before calling in 4 turns. :)

I was worried that Giants might have become too overpowered, but my resource portion focused on avoiding attacks keyed to regions, which meant that the Giants weren't too much of a bother (ironically, I had intended those resources to help against awakened plants).

As far as reeenergizing the game, the threat of floods had me packing Skies of Fire (since I was running an overt company, hero resources were not prominent in the deck), which is the sort of shift I like to see - a previously unused card picking up more value.

The next thing to do will likely be to test some of the Ring play cards . . .

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:08 pm

After having a look at the selected cards for VC2 so far, this is what strikes me:
- some cards in there that received little/no discussion (sojourn, spells discord, fiery blade, await advent), some of which imho are rather pale (notably the delver's harvest/earth eater/gnawed ways combo, and map to mithril)
- some cards are new (where they come from? lost in DD?), some really cool, like gold chains!
- still no pukel enhancements included
- alot of Fallen Saruman, I totally agree with helping him, but obviously not all can be selected
- also quite a bit RW movement enhancers, in itself not that bad, but VC1 already helped out here so a bit redundant, well redundant, in the sense that active RW's has been improved alot.

As we all know, each of us has different ideas with respect to virtualising, some like simple cards with tactical benefits and general effects, others more thematical or inventive options to get something cool out of a game. All of us like more interaction, between players, and between hazard/resource play, to avoid the standard cards. Of course a VCset will have to have a good mix. I think some more options for (minion) missions are still missing. Missions usually don't win you the game, but they are what makes it worth playing often, for me. Here's a few that could be cool and were not included so far.

In the name of Mordor, Ring Leaves it's mark, Deepest Delvings, Knowledge of the enemy/Double Dealing, Ancient Secrets, Long Grevious Siege, Legendary Stair, see http://www.councilofelrond.org/forum/vi ... .php?t=982

with respect to rings, these ideas might also be interesting to include:
Dark Power (like better than the general Something Else), Will of the Ring, Wizard's Ring, The Undeeps of Anduin

and as personal note, I really think we need more Stinker play http://www.councilofelrond.org/forum/vi ... .php?t=981!

lastly, as oddities, I like Bairanax Roused and Free to Choose

@Marcos, if you want to see those Arda ideas, have a look at the list in the rules file at Lure site. Especially Scroll of Isildur would be so cool to have in one way or another, since Scroll sucks big time, and to lure people to Isengard to test rings is so cool, but I suppose in constructed that would need major redoing (Bandobras wouldn't mind probably). Also I gave many factions some ability, because factions are boring, and it seems faction battling is not moving foreward yet, so this could be a way to go? No Strangers works pretty cool as interaction card to annoy your opponent, Rescue Prisoners is finally rescuing prisoners, Stone of Erech is the ultimate motivational test, Red Book lets you sail Hobbits acros the sea, Tales of the Hunt rewards killing creatures for tactics, Here is a Snake lets you duel opponent, well, etc. Also some new versions for Lost in cards.
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Post by marcos » Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:21 pm

there isnt any new card, all were taken from suggestion. Lost in dark domain came from improving giants topic, and gold chains came from my post "some controversial ones" wich are old dreamcards of mine turned into Virtual cards
some of which imho are rather pale (notably the delver's harvest/earth eater/gnawed ways combo, and map to mithril)
what do you mean with pale?

About saruman, he really needs all that help, ICE's FW saruman REALLY sucks compared to ANY of the other 4 wizards, ask b_took about that...

About those card that received little discussion, those are the first to bite the dust in case that other ones were to be included...

Still no pukel men included, that is true, and i'm a bit sad about it, but we never got to a conlcusion on this one.

Wich are the RW movement enhacers you are talking about? I think that active RWs have improved indeed, but they still need to fit some holes to be at the same level as the old and always used ones... IIRC the only "enhacers" are messenger of mordor, steeds and black council, and all of them has some restrictions so they are good to fit those holes

I'll take a look at your mission cards, i really like them... but i think that it is nearly impossible to include them all... I would like to see more RWs missions because we are encouraging their active play, but they doesnt have much inovative stuff to do...

about rings, you think we still need more cards for ringplay? iirc i added quite some...

bairanax roused was replaced by steeds as ranger ally, i think such dragon ally would be really weird. And after all, why bairanax and not any other?

gollum/ stinker, could be... lets work more on it

Anyways, VC2 is very on the drawboard so it could change a lot, and i'm more than willing to make more virtual sets for gccg so we can test our suggestions

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