Re: Nature's Revenge

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Jambo
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Re: Nature's Revenge

Post by Jambo » Sat May 17, 2008 7:18 pm

How does this work with dead trees as trophies which are actually considered minor items?

Nerdmeetsyou
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Post by Nerdmeetsyou » Sat May 17, 2008 9:25 pm

where is the exact problem...
just because they ALSO count as minor inteams, why can't the card affect them like it is meant to be?

Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Sun May 18, 2008 6:10 pm

Boder's right; it doesn't mention an MP or kill pile so the trophy comes to life on their shoulders, grabs their heels all zombie-like, and attacks.

Frodo

Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Sun May 18, 2008 8:10 pm

Is the trophy discarded after this attack?

Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Mon May 19, 2008 3:36 am

Yep, that's what Revenge says (unless you kill it, then you get a new trophy).

Frodo

Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Mon May 19, 2008 3:44 am

Nature’s Revenge
I think the combination of +1 strike, attacker chooses defender, and the stripping of a marshalling point is too strong. I would suggest at least removing “attacker chooses defender,” though the +1 strike may be too strong as well.

If others think the extra strike is too strong, we could always say in a parentheses “(+1 strike if Huorn)”.

Quick thoughts?

Frodo

Nerdmeetsyou
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Post by Nerdmeetsyou » Mon May 19, 2008 8:53 am

I don't think plants will get too strong with this... because they are quiet shitty at the moment....

and if it happens though.... we can still alter the cards again...

I am allways for: "better make them too strong and change it later, before the game doesn't change at all because the new cards are not strong enough)

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Mon May 19, 2008 9:40 am

Yes, I agree this is a very strong card for a creature type that's extremely hard to cancel. Remember this can be used to bring back a dead "Ent in Search of Entwives" which will more often than not, not be killed again. It wouldn't be such an issue if all the APs didn't have a body.

These are the options I'd considered:

1. Make it worth 2 MPs.
2. Make the dead creature, once it's attacked, go back to being dead.
3. Tone down the attack based on one or more of Frodo's suggestions.
4. Always place this card in the opponent's MP pile.

The first option is simple. Make it more rewarding.

The second option is nice since people aren't losing their kill points or trophies. However, once an AP is dead this card becomes freely playable all the time, as there's no longer any dynamic where this card can't be played.

Third option is obvious.

I think I like the fourth option the best. If your opponent's lilled an AP, playing this card gives an MP. It will most likely recycle the creature, however, and therefore the dynamic is restored.
Last edited by Jambo on Mon May 19, 2008 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Mon May 19, 2008 9:42 am

I think the attacker chooses was referring to the 'revenge' part of the card, I think it can go, I would prefer that to go over the strike, since as it is, it's the only card that gives extra strike at the moment. The playtesters will probably say that this is the card that really makes the AP's work as strategy. If Choking is not in play, a revived Huorn will still have no chance without the extra strike. Attacker chooses is of course also good to keep him alive, but in combo with others it might be too good? I personally don't think so, but then I haven't tested...

"If plant is trophy, bearer of trophy must face a strike."
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Mon May 19, 2008 10:15 am

Based on option 4 above, this would read:

Nature's Revenge
Playable on an eliminated Awakened Plant creature that could attack the company. Bring the creature back into play and the creature immediately attacks the company (not counting against the hazard limit). The attack receives +1 strike and chooses defending characters. Place Nature’s Revenge in opponent’s marshalling point pile and he receives 1 marshalling point. Discard the creature if it is not defeated.

This way the card could remain tough. :)

Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Mon May 19, 2008 10:37 am

hmm, the object of the card in first place is to recycle the few creatures there are, more than enhance attacks. If this card goes out of play, the limit of recycling will be 3 times thus, at a cost of 3 mp's, that's a serious setback in recycling. Of course there is Radagast and Mouth, but the issue was the Huorns being dead so easily...

If playing against heroes, Ent doesn't do much and can't be defeated so the question once more, do you want to tone down if favor of minions making it less apealing to play against heroes?

I would opt for giving more mp's to Nature's Revenge, but only if attack is defeated, not regardless. That way you'll think twice before just unleashing a huorn, you'll do it only after some other attack.
Ent's body is 8, pretty high, maybe NR can lower his body with -3? He is returning from the dead after all...
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Mon May 19, 2008 10:54 am

That's a good idea Thorsten:

Nature's Revenge
Bring an eliminated Awakened Plant creature into play if it could attack the company (may also be used on a trophy). The creature immediately attacks the company (not counting against the hazard limit) and the attack receives +1 strike, -4 body, and chooses defending characters. If the creature is defeated, place Nature’s Revenge in opponent’s marshalling point pile and he receives 2 marshalling points. Discard Nature’s Revenge and the creature if it is not defeated.
Last edited by Jambo on Mon May 19, 2008 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Mon May 19, 2008 11:18 am

looks good to me!
yes 2@9 chooses is even still better than 2@10 not chooses, therefore if it is deemed too strong, I would go with removing attacker chooses. I understand if you up the mp's that choosing is good, but if you play it after other attacks, you don't need to choose. The reward is big enough for opponent to have a go at it and tap his best guys, that's also worth something, and hey!, a 2@13 Old Man should have the chance to kill Bombur, that's only fair.

what about the trophy bearer clause? It's just that I liked Frodo's comment: if plant is trophy, he suddenly comes alive and strangles the unsuspicious orc! :)
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Mon May 19, 2008 11:36 am

I'd also be happy about removing the attacker chooses, but if doing so there may be an argument for not making it worth 2 MPs. The trophy is still an eliminated creature so it would come back to bite. The crf says Returned Beyond All Hope can target creatures still in play as trophies, so the same will be for this.

Edit: I've clarified it can be used on a trophy in the above version.

Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Mon May 19, 2008 11:46 am

No I meant my suggestion to include a clause that trophy bearer must face a strike.
Since more than half of the time a minion comp. will take the defeated plant as a trophy - covert companies do more cancelling - that kind of is attacker chooses, you know who at least gets a strike. But, mostly it'll be the bigger guys of course that get the trophies, so it comes down to it, do you want attacker chooses for protecting the mp's, or for making a bigger guy tap?
It's still not that easy to defeat a revived plant if attacker chooses is removed, if you have Choking Shadows, it'll be 2x 2@10 at least. Tapping a comp. out is worth 2 mp's I suppose.
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.

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