First of the Order

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Jambo
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First of the Order

Post by Jambo » Sat May 10, 2008 11:24 am

This card works really well and it's a lot better than before, however, one thing that Saruman really needs, and possibly Ben might agree with me here, is a corruption check helper for himself!

First of the Order:
Playable on Saruman during the organization phase. Tap First of the Order to give a +2 to a corruption check for a character other than Saruman in Saruman's company. If untapped, you may discard this card to give Saruman a +2 to a corruption check. Cannot be duplicated.

It's slightly harder to play, now requiring the org phase, but at least it might help Saruman with two of his abilities: using Palantiri and using spells. Plus, that extra First of the Order that you might pack in the deck is no longer a redundant card.

Ringbearer
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Post by Ringbearer » Sat May 10, 2008 1:36 pm

[offtopic] It still doesnt protect him from wolves or skinchanger ;) [/offtopic].

It might be a good idea, although Ben idnt play spells vs me, so I have no real idea how bad spells are for Saruman. Maybe its because he played a lot of corruption that it backfired ;)
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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Sat May 10, 2008 3:31 pm

The spells were what I used vs. everybody else before rethinking my canceling strategy, and Saruman got nailed a couple of times by the sorcery ccs, which are extremely difficult on an active FW as they stand a good chance of tapping said Wizard out, especially if he's using Never Refuse to avoid the aforementioned Skin-Changers. I believe I like this idea, and it would mean that a Virtual Many-Coloured Robes could actually use First of the Order (First of the Order, Focus Palantir, White Light Broken . . . that would be some interesting stuff).

Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Sat May 10, 2008 6:11 pm

I have a really crazy suggestion for this card! (uh-oh, joe always begins his sentences with that line...)

I can see that we really want Saruman to be doing what he does in the novels: spell-blasting and palantir-gazing. However, the Saruman card just doesn't reflect that--it gives him too high a negative corruption bonus, and seems to be designed so that he WILL corrupt. Yet, if we make it too easy for Saruman to completely avoid corruption--give him a positive instead, or remove spell CCs--it doesn't seem to reflect the corruption dangers enough.

SO, what if we retargetted the negative effects of a failed corruption check by doing something that IS very thematic of Saruman:

"If Saruman would be eliminated by a corruption check from a spell, discard a character in his company instead."

!

He could still be targetted by Echoes, Ren, normally.This would be a nice built-in protection for Saruman, yet make it so that he's more vulnerable when he's completely alone, as opposed to when he's surrounded by his army. The FW hero player will be heroically making these really high CC checks on Saruman's spells, thus reflecting Saurman's boldness and heedlessness, and if he actually fails one, poof! somebody else gets the blame.

Ooh, we could even say something like:

"If Saruman would be eliminated by a corruption check from a spell, discard a character in his company instead (choose Wormtongue if available)."

Frodo

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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Sat May 10, 2008 6:50 pm

Any chance of conjoining this with the "Fixing Fallen Saruman" Thread further down?

That's an interesting proposition, but I'd shy away from making it hit Wormtongue first. Ideally, it would hit Wormtongue last, since he was with Saruman all the way to Sharkey's End.

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Sun May 11, 2008 9:16 am

what would happen if there wasn't a character in Saruman's company?

Think I'd still prefer the one-off cc boost for Saruman, as it allows the player to use Saruman's specials, but at the same time not get carried away with it. :)

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Post by Balin » Mon May 12, 2008 7:46 am

Frodo wrote:"If Saruman would be eliminated by a corruption check from a spell, discard a character in his company instead."
I like it! :D
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marcos
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Post by marcos » Mon May 12, 2008 8:51 pm

i like that too

Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Tue May 13, 2008 5:37 am

I missed what Jambo wrote: that you must discard the card and use it only once per turn. It's true that that would already nicely limit the card so Saruman doesn't get carried away with corruption. Question: is this necessary though if we simply give the card some other alternative discard text? Because then people can simply use the original first of the order to give Saruman +2 to CCs for the whole turn! (But maybe using both FoAs, with Jambo's rewrite, is better).

We could also limit the use of the +2 to himself, if we thought it was necessary, by saying "if bearing a palantir or using a spell... +2..."

On the other hand, I also like the discarding of a character idea... heh... :twisted: though maybe this can be some other FW Saruman helper... like an effect that simply UNTAPS him...
Now that I rethink it I agree that Wormtongue shouldn't be discarded first. We can cut that altogether, or do:
1) "If Saruman would be eliminated by a corruption check from a spell, you may prevent that effect by tapping or wounding Wormtongue in his company, or discarding a character in his company."

Ha ha...

Frodo

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Tue May 13, 2008 6:52 am

The advantage it has over the original First of the Order is that it comes from a permanent event and therefore the +2 to Saruman's cc is more readily available.

The reason I made it discard was to prevent continual access to a +2 to ccs for Saruman and give uses to other First of the Orders in your deck. I use a Saruman deck with Palantiri, and typically I would include 2 First of the Orders to ensure I get one in suitably quick fashion.

However, I do see the value of restricting where the bonus to ccs can be applied. Perhaps some kind of combination can be used, with perhaps a slightly lower bonus to the other characters to counter-balance?
First of the Order wrote: Playable on Saruman during the organization phase. Tap First of the Order to give a +2 to a corruption check for a character other than Saruman in Saruman's company. If untapped, you may discard this card to give Saruman a +2 to a corruption check from a spell, a magic card, or from using a Palantir. Cannot be duplicated.
Last edited by Jambo on Thu May 15, 2008 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Wed May 14, 2008 10:35 am

I also like the idea of corruption having an alternate effect on Sorryman. In a way Saruman can't be corrupted after all, he already is fully corrupted. Yet his corruption always backfires on him, in the books.

The discard character or wound character is interesting mechanism. If he's at home it has no great drawback, you can heal or retrieve (half-orc) easily. At home his spell using isn't very useful either. If he's wandering, wounding/discarding a char is a big penalty, yet if he's with a load of small guys they can take the heat for him. A dictator always causes some attrition :wink:
I do like the spell/magic/palantir bonus only, but like Frodo says, why give him the cc bonus, how does that compare to other wizards, why not just accept the fact that he is corrupted and build from there?
Using magic/spells still does little good if he gets tapped all the time though, that's a plus to giving a cc bonus.

How about, if he fails a cc, you lose handsize, for a turn, or maybe permanent. The more corrupted you get, the shorter your vision. You can get it back by discarding stage perms then?
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Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Wed May 14, 2008 10:55 am

One thing to think about is the ramifications of how Saruman interacts with the One Ring and particularly with dunk decks if one can avoid Saruman being eliminated after failing a cc. Can he stay at Mount Doom and repeatedly try to dunk if he fails?

One upside is that it might encourage people to use the One Ring with Saruman in a way other than dunking or Morannon, i.e. going around and causing havoc with it. :)

The penalty should be severe. I like the idea of hand size reduction, but perhaps it's not enough simply on its own?

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Wed May 14, 2008 11:10 am

well in general handsize is major in the game, ask people who've been FoIS-ed. :wink: If somebody plays Will Shaken on you, what do you chose?

On average people don't last long with the ring, especially not when they're at Mount Doom. Must be funny if you are there and each turn chars around you disappear. Then The Ring Will Have but One Master is played on you, you definitely end up a lonely Saruman. :D

Having Cracks in hand each turn is already somewhat of a difficulty, more so if handsize is reduced. And opponent can just cycle and call anyway. But I agree I had thought FotO especially to be a FW helper, since he's got the damned -1, and since he's got all sorts of stuff that gives him corruption. If the normal Saruman gets corrupted, just play the FW :wink:

Would be nice if the One is actually used indeed!

Maybe the rotation mechanism can be used to keep track of number of times failing cc. If you fail 4 times, Saruman gets eliminated (and you lose?).
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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Wed May 14, 2008 1:39 pm

Since Fallen Saruman has an innate -1 to ccs, he needs more help in that area than any other FW. As far as Hero Saruman goes I don't like losing handsize when his ability is to bring spells back to hand -- you're simply trading one drawback for another.

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Thu May 15, 2008 8:08 am

I think for the purpose of this game, we have to assume that hero Saruman is not corrupt and represents the Saruman that first came to the shores of Middle-earth. Likewise for Pallando, Radagast and Alatar. If we're going down the route that Saruman is already innately corrupt, then perhaps the same could be said for all the non-Gandalf wizards...

The -1 to ccs for Fallen Saruman suggests that ICE definitely went with this theory for the Fallen version. It's an unfortunate addition in my opinion, since being Fallen already suggests that the wizard has lost his way; after all, they can recruit orcs and trolls and slay heroes. The fact that a Fallen wizard can still be eliminated through corruption is a concept that's hard to fully grasp.

If it boils down to one or the other, I'd prefer to improve Saruman's chances when using his own abilities (palantiri/spells) than dream up an entirely new concept for Saruman and corruption. While the new concept would be great for Fallen Saruman, I'm not sure it's totally applicable for the hero Saruman, who should be open to nasty effects of corruption just like the others. Otherwise, Gandalf and Radagast's +1 to ccs will be somewhat dwarfed in comparison.

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