Dwar Unleashed

Where the Virtual Boyz plan their latest capers

Moderator: Virtual Card Development

Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Mon May 25, 2009 9:41 pm

CURRENT VERSIONS TO TEST
Okay, so I'm going to synthesize the issues and try some versions. Here's my first attempt:

ORC-MOUNTS
(This replaces the second paragraph; first paragraph stays the same):
Tap Orc-mounts and a Wolf ally to transfer the ally from one character to another in the same company; if ally is moving, his new controller may untap. You may tap one Orc-mounts during your end-of-turn phase to take Our Own Wolves into hand. Our Own Wolves no longer creates an attack against your companies.

DWAR UNLEASHED
Playable during the Organization Phase if Dwar is your Ringwraith. Dwar may use Our Own Wolves, Hounds of Sauron, and move using region movement to any site where a unique Wolf faction is playable or to any site with a Wolf automatic-attack. Characters with Wolf allies may be in Dwar's company; such allies gain the ranger skill. For each unique Wolf faction in play, at the beginning of the movement/hazard phase you may choose for Dwar's region and one adjacent region to become a [W] or [D]. Discard this card to search your play deck (reshuffle) for a Wolf ally or faction.

marcos
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Post by marcos » Mon May 25, 2009 10:39 pm

i dont really know what is the issue with the Dwar strategy, now he has plenty rangers and can be in the same company as other characters... maybe his maximum MPs in his intended strategy is a bit low... Has anybody tried to build a deck mixing him with some of the new "minion quests" in sets 2 and 3?

Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Tue May 26, 2009 12:36 am

Hey Marcos, it would be useful for one of us to play against your version of the Dwar deck, using any iteration of these V-cards. It's hard to base decisions on only one or two guys' versions, especially someone like me that doesn't know minion very well.

BUT, it would be best if the test included no V2 or V3 cards, otherwise it doesn't really test V1.

--Frodo

marcos
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Location: Córdoba, Argentina

Post by marcos » Tue May 26, 2009 1:05 am

Frodo wrote:Hey Marcos, it would be useful for one of us to play against your version of the Dwar deck, using any iteration of these V-cards. It's hard to base decisions on only one or two guys' versions, especially someone like me that doesn't know minion very well.

BUT, it would be best if the test included no V2 or V3 cards, otherwise it doesn't really test V1.

--Frodo
been playing vs took, unfortunately hazards worked so well that he conceded after the second turn...
What i meant is that i don't know why he is not working. He's got what he is supposed to need but still not doing as expected. Like i said, maybe he needs to mix his strategy with some kind of quest (like i did in my deck)
i'll be in GCCG after 18:30 GMT-3 during the week if you'd like to play :)

Frodo
Posts: 501
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Location: NYC, NY

Post by Frodo » Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:29 am

Okay, I spent *hours* on this, and finally came up with some very good new versions. Please test!

ORC-MOUNTS
Playable at any tapped or untapped site with a Wolf automatic-attack (if you have a Wolf faction in play) or an Orc automatic-attack if the influence check is >10. Standard modifications: +3 if Dwar is your Ringwraith or Saruman is your Fallen-wizard. Your unique Wolf factions gain an additional marshalling point and “Standard modifications: +2 for each Wolf in company.” Tap Orc-mounts to transfer a Wolf ally; if ally is moving, his new controller may untap. Tap Orc-mounts during your end-of-turn phase to take Our Own Wolves or Hounds of Sauron from your discard pile into hand. Our Own Wolves no longer creates an attack against your companies.

DWAR UNLEASHED
Playable during the Organization Phase on Dwar’s company. Lycanthrope mode. Dwar may play Our Own Wolves, Hounds of Sauron, and take a second movement/hazard phase to move again with starter movement to a site where a Wolf faction is playable, a Wolf automatic-attack or Wolf ally is, or same site as opponent’s company. Characters with Wolf allies may be in Dwar's company, and Wolf allies in his company gain the ranger skill. While not moving, tap this card to change Dwar’s current region (and one adjacent region for each unique Wolf faction you control) into a [W] or [D] until your next organization phase. Discard this card to search your play deck (reshuffle) for a Wolf.

Concerns (mostly addressed)

*We want to encourage the gathering of unique Wolf factions. But with the need for all that protection to get the Wolf factions in those deadly areas, the Dwar deck becomes choked.
*We would love to encourage the use of MOVING companies for Dwar, rather than squatting. In other words, how can we make this deck different than Radagast/Balrog wolf-squat?
*Related to this, if someone makes Dwar’s other companies, or Dwar himself, a squatter, the squatting strategy shouldn’t become very strong because of these cards.
*Dwar’s company initiating CVCC should be possible. (Especially since Hounds of Sauron cannot be duplicated during the site phase when attacking opponent.) This means he has to be able to use at least starter to a NON-Darkhaven site where opponent may be (rather than depending on some other mode card).
*Frodo would like to see Ringwraith followers be rarely used by Dwar, or even prohibited. He seems like a loner.

Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
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Post by Bandobras Took » Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:53 am

Remove same site as opponent's company. Granted that CvCC can be fun, don't make it too easy for a RW and 6 wolf allies+controllers to reach another company.

Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:38 am

Maybe you're right. Although, Our Own Wolves can only be used against an attack, so it can't be played offensively; Dwar's company, if everybody and every wolf is there, won't be *that* big.

What about allowing the movement to opponent's site only if Dwar is with no other characters?

Frodo

Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Tue Jun 09, 2009 10:39 am

wow, the darkness of Dwar is spreading over middle earth like a tipped over ink bottle. 8) but it seems ok to me.

however, I'm not convinced that playing wolf-factions is more dangerous than playing other stuff in Eriador, ok your wolves are vulnerable, but such is their nature, and using OOW helps here a bit. I agree with the movement enhancer, and I would also be fine with an influence enhancer because rolls are steep, but I think the mp enhancer is not necessary, it's 8 mp for 3 factions and you can play multiple stuff at the site...

in dreamcards we have this guy that can tap to heal a wolf ally. That might be a nice idea also to virtualize, so if the dog survives the bc, he can still be of use. otherwise they are ultimately doomed.

btw I can play 3 Orc Mounts, so that would mean all wolf factions get +3?
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.

marcos
Posts: 2010
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Location: Córdoba, Argentina

Post by marcos » Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:13 pm

hehehe, now we are done on BR and TRT, dwar U is the next! :lol:
btw I can play 3 Orc Mounts, so that would mean all wolf factions get +3?
i was going to ask the same. I think that 1 MP per faction is good but more than that is excessive

Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
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Post by Bandobras Took » Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:18 pm

Frodo wrote:Maybe you're right. Although, Our Own Wolves can only be used against an attack, so it can't be played offensively; Dwar's company, if everybody and every wolf is there, won't be *that* big.

What about allowing the movement to opponent's site only if Dwar is with no other characters?

Frodo
I'm generally against lots of text, half-abilities, and lots of qualifiers. Either let him move to his opponent's site or don't; I'm in favor of don't, especially since there's a broad range of sites he can move to already.

marcos
Posts: 2010
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 5:41 pm
Location: Córdoba, Argentina

Post by marcos » Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:23 pm

Bandobras Took wrote:
Frodo wrote:Maybe you're right. Although, Our Own Wolves can only be used against an attack, so it can't be played offensively; Dwar's company, if everybody and every wolf is there, won't be *that* big.

What about allowing the movement to opponent's site only if Dwar is with no other characters?

Frodo
I'm generally against lots of text, half-abilities, and lots of qualifiers. Either let him move to his opponent's site or don't; I'm in favor of don't, especially since there's a broad range of sites he can move to already.
actually not THAT much, just sites with wolf auto attacks (isengard, white towers, weathertop, ettenmoors), sites with orc automatic attacks (because of orc mounts), lossadan cairn and stone circle wich is kinda far from dwar's range of action.

I'm in favour of moving to opponent's site, that encourages the play of hounds of sauron and gives the dwar player an extra winning strategy choice (CVCC)

Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
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Post by Bandobras Took » Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:16 pm

And every Border-Hold in the game if you play Fell Winter.

marcos
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Post by marcos » Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:34 pm

the same fell winter that can be twilighted or GoM'ed? ;)

Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:06 pm

btw I can play 3 Orc Mounts, so that would mean all wolf factions get +3?
Yikes! I certainly did not mean for this to be cumulative. It should only be +1 MP, that's it. Anyone have an idea on how to word this nicely? :oops:

I agree with you Thorsten that playing the wolf factions is not more dangerous than playing other stuff in Eriador. However, my understanding is that competitive decks that *move* in Eriador are doing one of two things: Malady without Healing decks, or trying to get high mp items (palantirs, arkenstone) and man factions. Wolf decks will squat, because that is the only way to play so many low-value allies quickly enough to churn through your deck and make up for the fact that you have low mp cards.

In the Dwar deck, we have this unusual situation where we want to play wolves, we want to play wolf factions (which are lower mp than the man factions, and harder to play than items, because item sites merely require large prowess or cancelers, which traveling arond Eriador requires anyway, and they are therefore more efficient a cards to include than faction-helping resources like Threats), and we want to move.

Yikes, I just realized that my Dwar deck under construction could be playing MALADY!! Sigh; I wish Hounds of Sauron was a better choice, but that card reeaaally sucks compared to Malady and then just attacking your opponent.
(However, at least we made it pullable, and it does have the alternative way it can be played).
I'm generally against lots of text, half-abilities, and lots of qualifiers.
You're right, B... sometimes I (and we!) want the card to address everything, which means editing it full of restrictions, but then we get something that is harder to read and understand.

I wish we could have some minor limitation to Dwar's moving to opponent's site, but it's incredibly difficult to think of a well-phrased one that takes up only a few words. I should point out that it is unlikely a moving Dwar will ahve RW followers, since they cannot be playing at Carn Dum and that will be his main base of operations. I should also point out that if you run any character with a wolf ally to opponent's site, Dwar can then move there. However, I didn't think this was enough because Dwar's other companies are the "gatherers", and Dwar himself will be the "hunter", and they can very easily be far away from each other.

Oh... I just thought of a completely ridiculous idea!! Somebody stop me here, but I have to say what it is:

Rewrite: "Dwar may play Our Own Wolves, Hounds of Sauron, and take a second movement/hazard phase to move again with starter movement to a site where a Wolf faction is playable, a Wolf automatic-attack is, a Wolf ally is or just moved, or within two regions of Wolf."

Weird, huh? But hey, his name is Wolf, after all. And his horse knows the way to carry Dwar's sleigh...

Frodo

Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:05 pm

marcos wrote:the same fell winter that can be twilighted or GoM'ed? ;)
Why, yes, that's exactly the one I was talking about. :) It can even be Skies of Fired. Just because there's a counter doesn't mean the possibility doesn't exist.

Actually, if Dwar Unleashed becomes a mode card, then he can move to any non-Darkhaven site anyway. That's what mode cards by rule do (though the MELE only list the 3 original modes).

Frodo: If we limit it back to Starter movement, I'm going to scrap the whole thing and simply put together a company with Khamul Unleashed and Forced March.

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