Dwar Unleashed

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Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Tue Jun 09, 2009 10:03 pm

Actually, if Dwar Unleashed becomes a mode card, then he can move to any non-Darkhaven site anyway. That's what mode cards by rule do (though the MELE only list the 3 original modes).
Ah, this is very important information!! I tried to look it up, and found only that MELE stated the 3 original modes would enable movement to non-Darkhaven sites. It did NOT say that "a mode" or "any mode" will enable movement to non-Darkhaven sites. After a quick review of the CRF, neither did the CRF.

Can anyone find anyplace else that perhaps mentions that "modes" allow such movement? If so, we can scrap the line about moving to opponent's sites because you can simply move there from the nearest Darkhaven.

Frodo

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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Tue Jun 09, 2009 10:42 pm

There isn't, but we're going to start generating confusion if we create mode cards that do NOT allow such movement.

Also, on a strictly aesthetic note, "lycanthrope" is of Greek derivation; perhaps "Warg-Master" would be more appropriate?

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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:33 am

I did Greek at school (the language...) for 5 years and had to translate the Iliad and Elektra by sophocles, but unfortunately I never learned the meaning of lycanthrope :wink:

I agree with Bandobras that introducing a new mode would be better accepted if you stick to the same mode rules. Anyway it's alot clearer.

I don't see a big problem with moving to opponent. This whole thing seems to me to be about interaction, so why not persue it more on that road. Many opponents will be far away from wolf territory. That's also why I don't think you need to up the mp's, maybe the petty wolves and wolf factions are worth less, but each mp you take away from opponent in CvCC counts double...let's not forget that you play alot of ally mp's, the hardest category to get, if you can focus on ally destruction (eg in cvcc, or by keying some nazgul to the DD you just created), then you might double alot of points...

but actually, maybe I missed something, what was wrong with the original region movement ability? did it take too long to build up the hound mp's?

btw. the small company eriador roam can be very successful, as proven by some balrogs who made even world champ, like in 2003. Ok balrog has other stuff going for it, but if you keep hl low, one of your companies will always get through unharmed and play multiple stuff at a site, so there is no need to squat. In fact, squatting is way too vulnerable to Heedless, what you need is a combo of squat, short movement (same region, like Weathertop to White Towers), and multiple small strong companies (lieutenant with lagduf, shagrat with muzgash, two report you's, something like that, again, balrogs have it easy). Also the first turns Dwar will still support you with his +1.

Like I said before, it's actually the high faction rolls that are more problematic I think, because the type of guys you'd want to play this with rely on threats and have few other options, unless they scoop some trophies. The offensive part doesn't combine well with the influencing part, as you say, so maybe it's better to give Dwar's companies +3 on rolls vs wolf factions?

The power of the alternate use of Hounds is very good, don't underestimate that. But of course it always brings you back to Elerina, not many people have the courage to send out Ciryaher with some wolves. So, would it be stretching it to lett all your companies use Hounds and OOW, as long as there are dogs present in the company?

I still think some dog healing ability would be nice or in order. If you can't heal them, they actually slow you down and make life more dangerous. We could add to Mounts that if you transfer a wolf, you may heal him.

btw. with WHCTK you can easily play RW followers on Dwar, right?
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Post by marcos » Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:40 pm

i wouldn't focus on a cvcc strategy for Dwar, just use it as an alternative option, that is why i'm in favor of extra mps, maybe you can word it similar to factions that gives 2 extra mps when stacked on a leader?

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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:11 pm

"anthrope" is pretty easy; it's the same root as misanthrope, anthropomorphism, anthropology, etc.

"lycos" simply means wolf, as far as I know.

Werewolf is closer to the old english; man-wolf.

However, are we dealing with a shapeshifter? I hadn't assumed so, so I prefer Warg-master.

At any rate, my arguments against your Opponent's site:

1) It adds yet more text to a card;
2) There are already mode cards that let you go to an opponent's site;
3) As I mentioned, with Fell Winter there are a wide variety of sites Dwar can move to;
4) Hounds of Sauron and Our Own Wolves both have defensive uses anyway.

As a side note, here's the history of the evolution of the Virtual card:
Dwar Unleashed

Permanent Event

Playable During the Organization Phase if Dwar is your Ringwraith. Cannot be duplicated. Dwar's own company may use region movement if in a mode. The base number of regions his company may use is 0. This number is increased by one for every wolf faction in play and is increased by one for every three wolf allies in play, to a maximum of four.
Dwar Unleashed
Permanent Event
Playable During the Organization Phase if Dwar is your Ringwraith. Dwar's own company may use region movement. He may move 1 region, plus an additional region for every Wolf faction in play or every two wolf allies in play. Any character with a Wolf ally may be in his company. You may discard this card to add a bonus to prowess equal to the number of regions Dwar is moving to all wolf allies in his company until the end of the turn. Cannot be duplicated.

--This is a lot different; I wanted to make the card significantly more powerful, even though a lot of these side benefits may not see play always, or may not even be wanted (adding characters to his company could make the company more sensitive to creatures).
Dwar Unleashed
Permanent Event
Playable During the Organization Phase if Dwar is your Ringwraith. Dwar's company may use region movement even if he is not in a mode. He may move 1 region, plus an additional region for every Wolf faction in play or every two wolf allies in play. Any character with a Wolf ally may be in his company (if ally is removed from play, you have until your organization phase to resolve your company). You may discard this card to add a bonus to prowess (maximum +7) equal to the number of regions Dwar is moving to all wolf allies in his company until the end of the turn. Cannot be duplicated.
Then we added Orc-Mounts, etc.

The funny thing is, what were originally intended to be bonus abilities not to be used in every situation have become the main focus and are requiring boatloads of text. Originally, my thought was simply to have a Wolf-Gathering company in Eriador, and Dwar supporting them at a Darkhaven until able to move with a RW company to get something big and cool. Why not return to simplicity?

Dwar Unleashed
Permanent Event
Dwar's company may move using region movement. For each Dwar Unleashed in play, he may move one region +1 for each Wolf Faction in play (to a maximum of seven regions). Non-Ringwraith characters controlling a Wolf Ally may be in Dwar's company.

Orc-Mounts
(Standard Playability clauses).
Tap Orc Mounts to transfer a Wolf Ally to another character if the ally is moving. You may untap target character or heal the ally. Tap Orc Mounts to bring Our Own Wolves or Hounds of Sauron from the discard pile to your hand during the end-of-turn phase. Our Own Wolves creates no attack against your companies.

What this does:
Dwar Unleashed innately increases the number of regions by being in play -- you won't have to get Wolves at all, but he'll be limited to 3 regions without Wolves, and that only when you get all three in play.

As for Orc-Mounts, I think that's the simplest way to word it.


Concerns Addressed:
Because the Wolf Allies no longer are required for the region movement, we discourage squatting.

Because there are a host of hazards to change region types anyway, we drop the region type change. It was cool, but it's too wordy.

Because there are any number of characters capable of using spirit magic/shadow magic, we let them use it instead trying to make Dwar a one-man army.

Dwar will need a mode card to move, but we have Virtual Cards that make getting a default mode card pretty easy. By the same token, Dwar will be able to move to any site he pleases.

The Wolf faction theme will allow for some spectacular movement, but will not be necessary to have Dwar on the move.

It will not obsolete the original, which simply allows Dwar to use standard region movement for a turn.

We get rid of the Ranger text for Wolf Allies because Dwar wasn't going to control them anyway and if he's got other characters in his company while moving, they can be Rangers.

Main Concern addressed:
It's simple, it should work, and we won't have to debate a bunch of details because the power will be in the hands of the deck builder -- they decide when, where, how, and with whom Dwar will move.

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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:25 pm

Actually, with easy access to Black Rider through whatever Virtual card allows you to bring Black Rider from the sideboard, there's no need to allow Dwar special starter movement anywhere, whatever we end up doing.

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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:18 pm

I wanted to wait for the others to reply, because you'll kind of know my reply probably :wink: . It's not that I object to this simplifying, it does have its appeal, but it also takes quite a bit of the flavour out of Dwar. Of course you can still do the wolfie thing anyway, but if it's not required, then you won't, right? Like you say, to combine playing the wolf-factions with the wolf allies isn't straight foreward after all, so why bother? And Dwar with just wolf-factions is less fun than attacking with a wolf squad. So if anything, I'd rather have him gain bonus from the allies than from the factions.

btw In my book, factions are a bore, because they don't do zilch. Actually with Orc Mounts we take the active/useful faction idea a step further than beast o wood and such, and that's really good...

But, Orc-mounts itself promotes squatting, because it's only 1 mp and playable at sites where you play the allies.

I like that the darkness travels with Dwar, but even I thought his region changer was getting too big and complicated. I don't mind if it's dropped. Maybe we can make another general card for it that does such thing, for all active RW's.

question: you mean to duplicate 3x DU and by that way move 3 regions? hmmm, don't see the point in that, it means with 1 Orc Mounts he can move 6 regions with region movement then...if that doesn't promote some Goblin Gate squatting I don't know what does.
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Post by marcos » Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:32 pm

i agree with eric

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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:37 am

Good points, I'll admit. I'd just rather that we find a simple effect text that does not sacrifice flexibility for flavor.

Dwar Unleashed:
Instead of any characters this turn, Dwar may bring into play one Wolf Ally during the organization phase at his current site (without tapping himself or the site). Dwar's company may move one region for each Wolf Ally he controls. River does not affect his company when using Region Movement. Dwar may influence Unique Wolf Factions at any non-haven site in a Wilderness.

Frodo's Concerns:
We want to encourage the gathering of unique Wolf factions. But with the need for all that protection to get the Wolf factions in those deadly areas, the Dwar deck becomes choked.
Instead of forcing him to move to the factions, what about forcing the factions to move to him? :)
*We would love to encourage the use of MOVING companies for Dwar, rather than squatting. In other words, how can we make this deck different than Radagast/Balrog wolf-squat?
Virtual Orc-Mounts should take care of that.
*Related to this, if someone makes Dwar’s other companies, or Dwar himself, a squatter, the squatting strategy shouldn’t become very strong because of these cards.
There's no motivation to squat if we eliminate the River threat when he moves, and the capacity to play the Wolf Allies instead of a character should in theory lead to less squatting (contrarily, the fact that it prevents character play for the rest of the turn should dampen a squatter's enthusiasm).
*Dwar’s company initiating CVCC should be possible. (Especially since Hounds of Sauron cannot be duplicated during the site phase when attacking opponent.) This means he has to be able to use at least starter to a NON-Darkhaven site where opponent may be (rather than depending on some other mode card).
Starting a Virtual Black Rider will have any Ringwraith on the move from the turn they enter play, if a player so desires. Black Rider is overall the best mode card for Dwar, anyway; he only gets +1 prowess off of Fell Rider at the cost of making him Overt.
*Frodo would like to see Ringwraith followers be rarely used by Dwar, or even prohibited. He seems like a loner.
If we make the Ally play more appealing than the RW follower play, this problem should solve itself without our restrictions.

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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:47 pm

But playing allies at a haven doesn't really invite Dwar to move, since his haven ability is so good...

Playing all wolf factions at Buhr widu also seems a bit over the top.

How bout something like: Dwar Unleashed:
Dwar's company may move with region movement 1 region + number of wolf allies in his company. Non RW characters may join Dwar during site phase at a Ruins and may play wolf allies there (even if tapped). Each non RW character controllng a wolf ally may be in Dwar's company and gives +1 on a roll against a wolf faction.
Dwar may play Hounds of Sauron and Our Own Wolves, which creates no attack against your company.
this will result in a constant aligning and departing from dwar's company from guys with wolf allies at ruins sites...

if you're afraid of rivers, let shagrat/ufthak and radbug move to Bandit lair or Gladden Fields or wherever, side with Dwar, get some wolves and then go with dwar to get some wolf factions. More probably though you'll want to use Dwar for getting some items, or a dragon faction even (with his big DI). Let's face it, wolf factions just stink, unless we get them to do something...
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Post by Bandobras Took » Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:44 am

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:But playing allies at a haven doesn't really invite Dwar to move, since his haven ability is so good...
But if the Allies come at the cost of playing any characters that turn, it is counterbalanced. You can get character MPs or 1 ally MP in a turn, but not both.
Playing all wolf factions at Buhr widu also seems a bit over the top.
I'm curious -- how were you planning on doing that, when faction play taps the site they are played at unless otherwise stated?
How bout something like: Dwar Unleashed:
Dwar's company may move with region movement 1 region + number of wolf allies in his company. Non RW characters may join Dwar during site phase at a Ruins and may play wolf allies there (even if tapped). Each non RW character controllng a wolf ally may be in Dwar's company and gives +1 on a roll against a wolf faction.
Dwar may play Hounds of Sauron and Our Own Wolves, which creates no attack against your company.
this will result in a constant aligning and departing from dwar's company from guys with wolf allies at ruins sites...
Easy character play, easy ally play, and no need to move . . . hmm . . .
if you're afraid of rivers, let shagrat/ufthak and radbug move to Bandit lair or Gladden Fields or wherever, side with Dwar, get some wolves and then go with dwar to get some wolf factions. More probably though you'll want to use Dwar for getting some items, or a dragon faction even (with his big DI). Let's face it, wolf factions just stink, unless we get them to do something...
Exactly. Which is why increasing their playable sites to Dwar's current site solves the problem while trying to somehow make it appetizing to move to sites more than 4 regions apart does not.

I don't honestly feel this version would resolve either squatting or clog issues, nor does it make it any more likely that the Wolf Factions would see play.

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Post by Frodo » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:40 am

I really like all the thinking you guys are doing here, especially Bandobras’s long reflections and justifications.

I agree with points that each of you have made. In trying to synthesize all of them, I thought of a solution that might make everybody happy. It gives the strategic player something more to do, and the straightforward player some useful movement options. It does require the creation of another virtual card… but strangely enough, it also requires the **removal** of Dwar Unleashed (V), which means things are a bit simpler, because we can go back to using a card that already exists (the original Dwar Unleashed!), rather than trying to reinvent the movement wheel.

Without further ado:

War-Warg (V)
Ranger Ally.
Prowess: 3. Body: 10.
Spirit of Carcharoth. Playable by Dwar (as your Ringwraith) during the site phase at a Darkhaven, if you discard a Wolf ally from any company. Treat this card like a Black Horse for the purposes of Black Rider (V). Characters with Wolf allies may be in Dwar's company during the site phase. Tap to take Dwar Unleashed or any Wolf into hand from discard pile or play deck (reshuffle), or if not moving to turn its current region and one adjacent region for each unique Wolf faction in play into a [D] until your next organization phase. This ally may play Our Own Wolves and Hounds of Sauron. Our Own Wolves no longer creates an attack against your companies. Spirit of Carcharoth cannot be duplicated.

I got the idea for this card because I thought I remembered werewolves being mentioned in Tolkien, and I was right. We could also use the card Hounds of Sauron for this ally (virtualizing it), if people thought that was better. Note that this ally can be transferred to another character using Orc-mounts if there’s another character in Dwar’s company; I’m not sure if we want that ability, so I left Thorsten’s clause about “only during the site phase.” Of course, that will just encourage Dwar to move with other Ringwraiths (although if you want more than one RW follower, they might need Black Horses or they’ll get stuck, which is very weird indeed).

Now, this card doesn’t directly list any super cool abilities for Dwar getting lots of wolf allies, I admit. BUT, since you CVCC in the site phase, it still provides the ability to meet up your Wolf and Dwar companies at the opponent’s single site, and then maul him to pieces. (Note that Our Own Wolves cannot be played offensively, so those Wolf allies will simply be extra strikes, but that still is nice—or they can defend with Our Own Wolves.) It does make unique Wolf factions tempting for the oldest reason of all—they’re pullable!—but also because it bolsters Dwar’s werewolf-moving abilities. (And I hope everyone noticed that in only helps Dwars if he’s MOVING places, not just sitting in places!)

This leaves us with a much simpler Orc-mounts:

ORC-MOUNTS
Playable at any tapped or untapped site with a Wolf automatic-attack (if you have a Wolf faction in play) or an Orc automatic-attack if the influence check is >10. Standard modifications: +3 if Dwar is your Ringwraith or Saruman is your Fallen-wizard. Your unique Wolf factions gain “Standard modifications: +2 for each Wolf in company.” Tap Orc-mounts to transfer a Wolf ally to another controller if the ally is moving. You may untap the new controller or heal the ally.

And, like I said before, no longer any need for a Dwar Unleashed (V).

Feel free to critique!

--Frodo

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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:54 am

some of you have been up too late :wink:

While preserving the use of original DU saves us the need to mention region movement, and using an ally to bring him in a mode is nice, I do prefer to have a whole unleashed set for constistency, so unless the warg adds a great deal, I'd rather not go that road. Right now I don't feel he adds that much, though it's nice you can reserve him from sb under BH. And to get Warg-king from discard is also nice of course.

You want the warg to be played at haven while discard a wolf ally from comp: that means first you need to go and get one and then return. It should be manageble, but it slows you down and is risky, suppose the wolf going back to haven dies, you're screwed for another 2 turns, and of course you'll have at least 1 less wolf ally in deck from start (in fact you might want a spare Warg v in sideboard in case he should die? hmm probably not).

I think both Bando and Frodo didn't get my proposal. I like Dwar to travel with guys with dogs, why not? why must he go alone, so then he needs river protection and some ranger ally? I just said "join with chars without wolf in site phase", so they could get to his site to upp his movement ability next turn. If they then still don't have a wolf next turn, they'll have to split again, and Dwar can move or stay and the other guys to another site to do their bussiness, and meet again a turn after that and play some more wolves, or cooler still, to transfer some wolves Dwar's company has played. Wolves always have a chance to die, so this would mean constant rearranging of dwar's company, while dwar will remain the Dogg Trouper around whom all revolves: he's gathering all orcs and doggs at a ruins.

But at least Dwar can meet up with them from the turn he is played and start moving immediately (if you can start DU of course), and you need him to move to play wolf allies at any ruins, which is commonly where you can do other useful stuff too (and where the dogs belong), like getting rings, which will automatically be tested by your RW.
Easy character play, easy ally play, and no need to move . . . hmm . . .
By join I mean, the company may join, not they may be brought into play there, hence your confusion probably. How this would result in easy char play, at a ruins, I don't know...only guys I know can be played at ruins are troll brothers, but you can play them under a Lieutenant anyway. If anything it is more difficult to play characters than staying at a haven. And if you want to squat with Dwar at a ruins, that is at least more dangerous than a haven, and you'll have to move at least once, or twice if to Ettenmoors, and you won't get much out of it except a few allies, so in all probability you'll move each turn. In your proposal I can see it happen, just leave Dwar all day in a haven to tap in support, and last turn instead of a char play an ally, you can't play chars each turn anyway so it doesn't have to be a sacrifice, and moreover you can WHKtK chars, but not allies.

My point about the faction is simple: unless it does something, I'd still rather play Ice Orcs with my Lieutenant: more mp, easier roll, possible Great Army benefit. Playing White Mountain Wolves at Buhr Widu just to 'get these guys see some play' is pathetic.

Using wolf factions to increase Dwar's movement is nice, but it then costs a lot of time to get Dwar moving. The region changer was out, but using only unique wolf factions for it seems ok to me, gives them a nice offensive purpose, I like that.
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Post by Bandobras Took » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:52 pm

I give a wholehearted approval to Frodo's idea.
Thorsten the Traveller wrote:some of you have been up too late :wink:

While preserving the use of original DU saves us the need to mention region movement, and using an ally to bring him in a mode is nice, I do prefer to have a whole unleashed set for constistency
We didn't have a whole Unleashed set, anyway. Neither Akhorahil nor Hoarmurath nor Ren have Virtual Unleasheds.
You want the warg to be played at haven while discard a wolf ally from comp: that means first you need to go and get one and then return.
I'm not sure where you got this idea; I see nothing in Frodo's version that suggests it.
(in fact you might want a spare Warg v in sideboard in case he should die? hmm probably not).
I'll happily bank on a 10 body.
I think both Bando and Frodo didn't get my proposal. I like Dwar to travel with guys with dogs, why not? why must he go alone, so then he needs river protection and some ranger ally?
Because putting the company together is hard to work out in practice.
I just said "join with chars without wolf in site phase", so they could get to his site to up his movement ability next turn.
Then the phrase will need rewriting; the two characters capable of "joining" a company can teleport there from any site if necessary, and Uvatha can do it from your hand.
Wolves always have a chance to die, so this would mean constant rearranging of Dwar's company
Which really means that I'm unlikely to play it at all.
But at least Dwar can meet up with them from the turn he is played and start moving immediately (if you can start DU of course),
I'd prefer not to have yet another startable card because people are too impatient to draw into something.
Easy character play, easy ally play, and no need to move . . . hmm . . .
By join I mean, the company may join, not they may be brought into play there, hence your confusion probably.
As mentioned above, the mechanic for joining indicates something very different from what you intended, then.
In your proposal I can see it happen, just leave Dwar all day in a haven to tap in support
At the cost of him being able to sideboard, yes, but that is neither here nor there.
and last turn instead of a char play an ally, you can't play chars each turn anyway so it doesn't have to be a sacrifice, and moreover you can WHKtK chars, but not allies.
So you get an ally point on your last turn; it'll prevent doubling, but that's about it.
My point about the faction is simple: unless it does something, I'd still rather play Ice Orcs with my Lieutenant: more mp, easier roll, possible Great Army benefit. Playing White Mountain Wolves at Buhr Widu just to 'get these guys see some play' is pathetic.
Playing them at Henneth Annun to supplement a Gondor-raiding deck is not. Perhaps "pathetic" in this instance does not apply to the ability so much as the use a builder puts to it.
Using wolf factions to increase Dwar's movement is nice
No it isn't. I have yet to see a Virtual game where it made any real difference whatsoever.

I'll once again voice my support for Frodo's idea. From a mechanistic standpoint, recycling Dwar Unleashed will provide the same slowdown as other recycling cards; we get rid of a whole bunch of movement clauses, and therefore have room for the other ideas to go in.

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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:16 pm

you seem very adamant, I can't say that I am, I still like my version better, but do as you will.
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