The Witch-king Unleashed - suggestion

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:52 pm

Yes a cool new version of WKU! To be honest, I didn't really like the first V version's ability to untap site, I think I mentioned that back in the day also. Anyway, would it be overpowered to change the alternatively into additionally? A single WK using the blade is still no good after all, and perhaps this way you can dispense with the Forced March, since you can get char back easily, so it'd be better if you didn't have to choose between the two abilities of WKU. But maybe a WKcompany using the blade alot is too good...
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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:57 pm

Yes, it's too good. With this card, the Witch-King already has an excellent shot at They Ride Together x 3.

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Post by marcos » Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:00 pm

i think it is not that good... how many turns it took me to get the 9 out with WKU? we didn't ended our match after exhausting once and half deck through and i still missed 1 RW... Maybe a timing mistake by me... maybe not, maybe the card is ok as it is :)
Anyway, i think that WK needs this card, it's just perfect for him

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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:04 pm

I like it as is, I just think the "additionally" clause is too good.

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Post by Jambo » Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:14 pm

This is probably one of my favourite new cards. It adds versatility to the WK, it fits perfectly with his natural abilities, and it brings into play previously unused, or underused cards. I just hope there is a need/temptation to use it for retrieving the blades. :)

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Post by marcos » Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:36 pm

I like it as is, I just think the "additionally" clause is too good.
the additionally clause for iron crown?

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Post by Jambo » Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:59 pm

I think Bandobras is referring to Thorsten's post where he thought about combining retrieving blades AND getting follower.

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Post by marcos » Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:48 pm

ah, well, that WILL be too powerful indeed i guess

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Post by Jambo » Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:45 pm

Options put forward for WKU by Joe:
Joe Bisz wrote:A) We could eliminate the dark-haven as a source of playability. This means that the Witch-King would at least have to MOVE before being able to gather his RW horde, and not simply haven-squat and cancel Nazgul perms all day long. It might also simulate the book a little better; the RWs kept riding around gathering information and slowly amassing themselves together until (with the final info that Frodo would cross the bridge) they all gathered together to try and stop him. Relevant Nazgul perms could not be played because the Witch-King is "gathering" his men on the resource front. WK would have to do some real work to get the They Ride Together reward. I see no problem with this idea.

B) OR/and: We could limit the RW grabbing to discard pile only. This would make it stoppable by the Lady, as Jambo pointed out. But it would also (more importantly?) mean that a player would have to carefully choose only 5 to put in his discard pile (at least at first tap), and have only those to possibly fizzle Naz perms with, rather than an arsenal of 8 in the SB to pick from. Negatives? I hate the idea that the WK has to tap twice... once to SB the blades, once to SB the RWs, but maybe that's not a big deal.

C) OR/and We could limit it to playdeck only... because a player who only wants to play one or two RW followers won't stuff his deck with all 8 just to fizzle Naz perms in response...

I guess I would favor at least option A, but I'm caught between B) and C). Thoughts? Decisions?? (It should definitely not be both.)

Oh, and Option A) would still work with Black Horses, since RWs are allowed to move from a non-darkhaven site back to a darkhaven even without a mode card.

Btw, remember if WK is MOVING he can't play this card in response to a naz perm to fizzle it... 'cause then he's not "at the site." Like WHCTK.
This resulted from some feedback by myself after playing a couple of games using new WKU. On top of Joe's comments, there's also the other option of limiting follower recruitment to a specific phase in the turn, say site phase or site and org phase.

Edited by Joe to say: "discard pile only"

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Post by marcos » Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:53 pm

i think that the card is ok as it is. My thoughts after testing this card:
marcos wrote:btw, I don't agree with the changes suggested for WKU...
I tryied it for TRT and i'm sure it wasn't that good, anyway i was lucky that my other company got some nice MPs and was also even luckier that i discarded b_took's ally and wizard's untapper with drowning seas. For TRT WKU is good, didn't tried the CvCC version or a MP gathering version either... TRT already has to fight vs the speed of the deck (wich is very slow), vs a nazgul dedicated strategy, and vs the slow amount of MPs that the other company can get... It's ok you receive 9 from TRT, but, what else to do? You stuck your entire deck with stuff for discarding nazguls, recycilng WKU and sbing that you run out of space in deck and even sb! (8 rws and at least 5 horses!!! that's almost half of the sb). We were talking some time ago about a TRT helper, and we were going to do In the name of mordor V, i think that WKU is just exactly what we wanted to do before and event better because it gives some alternatives for other kinds of decks like CvCC or Points gathering for WK

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Post by Frodo » Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:57 am

The problem, Marcos, (like with a lot of good ideas) is that a player can use WKU for something other than its intended purpose and possibly abuse the card: squatting at a haven to negate any and all Naz perms.

It may be that the TRT strategy is still too weak. But allowing WKU to be played at a haven might not be the best way to cure this problem.

Marcos, you and other players have pointed out that a TRT strategy takes *so many* cards, and this in itself is a huge problem, right? Hmm. Maybe we should tackle this problem more indirectly. Rather than trying to limit the amount of cards needed for a successful TRT strategy, what if we could allow the TRT player *to draw said needed cards faster*?

For example: We could add a line to TRT, if we thought there was room, that said something like the following—

“Each time you play a RW follower, draw 2 cards.”

This would be an interesting solution to the too-many-cards complaint. Players would STILL have to make larger than normal decks to be MP viable (more than 60 cards), but they’d get through them just as fast as 60 card deck players.

If there was no room on TRT, we could perhaps invent a Black Rider (V) that would have this clause on it. It would be the long-sought after “TRT helper card” and, best of all, can be pulled by TRT itself.

Thoughts?

Frodo

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Post by marcos » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:42 pm

been talking a lot with Jambo about WKU, and the problem seems to be the first turn run with a huge company of big RWs. IF that is the real problem, as Jambo and me think it is, then we suggest to add the clause "cannot be played the same turn that the witch-king is played"
That way we prevent the large amounts of RWs played on a first turn solving the problem without modifiyng the card too much. If a played doesn't have the luck of drawing WK soon, WKU will clog his hand so it haves a nice counterpart IMO...

thoughts?
Frodo wrote:For example: We could add a line to TRT, if we thought there was room, that said something like the following—

“Each time you play a RW follower, draw 2 cards.”

This would be an interesting solution to the too-many-cards complaint. Players would STILL have to make larger than normal decks to be MP viable (more than 60 cards), but they’d get through them just as fast as 60 card deck players.

If there was no room on TRT, we could perhaps invent a Black Rider (V) that would have this clause on it. It would be the long-sought after “TRT helper card” and, best of all, can be pulled by TRT itself.
Adding more stuff to TRT will be insane, we would have to use fontsize 6 or 8 :lol: i think there is no more space there to add more clauses, sentences, etc. And if we make a V black rider it will have to wait until set 2... I like the idea of drawing cards though

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:44 pm

I would be interested to see a decklist Marcos for your TRT deck, because I don't see why you would have to 'stuff your deck' for this card. You'd normally play with 3x Voices/Weigh all Things/Dark Tryst anyway, so there's no difference, and other requirements come from sideboard. Only extra is 2x TRT, right? but for 6 MPs! and you can drop them anytime (it could come from sideboard also). You can add also Ring leaves Mark, Yellow Face (Name of Mordor?), but that's not 100% necessary I think and it's versatile. Even with these you'd have about 15 slots left...
Not everybody includes 9 nazguls, normal would be 3-4, and against dump/run decks you'll probably loose on speed anyway. You can play nazguls yourself, or even Out of Black Sky strat. can help a little.
Then there's WKU, but he would be added bonus, you shouldn't need him, otherwise TRT would be unplayable by other RW's.

Frankly, the complaint about it taking up half sideboard is rather pathetic, who wouldn't trade half their sideboard for 9 MPs? you got a better use for it?

To be honest, I haven't played TRT yet. But if there are any problems, I think it must be a problem of speed/cardmanagement more than slots/support needed. I'd say problem is mainly hand-clogg and turns necessary. On average, speed isn't a problem for minions at all. Only thing here is you need to draw 7 extra cards from sideboard. That's not even that much, a FW usually needs 4-5 also and has got many more speed issues. If we allow 2 extra draw per RW, that's a 16 extra card-draw! for free! Talk about abuse. Besides, drawing extra cards is definitely useful but not heaven, since you're still stuck with cards you don't draw in org.phase. WKU would solve that, but is it fair to make TRT only playable for WK?

You need at least 5 BH for TRT, and probably more. So if you play them from sideboard via TRT it takes 6 turns at least. Would it be a problem to play 2 BH per turn on TRT? then chances of having a RW in hand without horse are nearly nil. You can design your normal resource portion to quickly thin the deck (mordor shuffle anyone?). There must be nothing more annoying than having two RW in hand and only having one horse and/or no space from WK/Khamul. This can aleviate hand-clogg a little. And even ups the chances for playing TRT not with WK/Khamul.

Still, sideboarding 7 RW takes 3 Weigh all Things and some 4 taps by your RW. (Ancient Secrets can't be used, right?) If you don't manage to untap your RW, that's 4 turns at least. If speed is an issue, a possible Black Rider V could include untapping your RW if at haven during org.phase by tapping another RW or two? Accessing sideboard would be peanuts then. Would this be prone to abuse?

I hope we'll see some other games where TRT will prove pretty succesful, because it doesn't seem to me that slots/speed per se is an issue, but rather timing/clogg. If you don't take the discard-pile option for WKU, then perhaps the increased options for sideboarding and playing RW/turn are a way to go?

question: if your 9 RW move, do all 3 copies of TRT tap simultaneously? I guess they do.
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Post by marcos » Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:56 pm

thosten wrote:Frankly, the complaint about it taking up half sideboard is rather pathetic, who wouldn't trade half their sideboard for 9 MPs? you got a better use for it?
sure, backups if main purposes of the deck goes wrong, hazards vs all kind of decks, helpers to main deck, etc, etc, etc... Does that looks pathetic to you? Oh, and stuck smaug roused and scatha roused plus some forced marchs to move between sites in sb and you have 10 MPs and only took 3 or 4 slots of sb instead of half of it
Thorsten wrote:WKU would solve that, but is it fair to make TRT only playable for WK?
i made an adunaphel TRT deck, b_took played against it. And i'm sure that khamul can be very good for it too since he can get followers with his unleashed
thorsten wrote:question: if your 9 RW move, do all 3 copies of TRT tap simultaneously? I guess they do.
no, you only tap it if you are going to move again, so if you want your 9 MPs you have to survive 4 M/H phases
Last edited by marcos on Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:56 pm

huge comp. of RW first turn? You'd need WK, and several WKU first turn, and opponent must be hero, and somewhere not in Eriador, or you need some March/Legg it. That I call lucky.
And they're not in fell rider, so prowess is 9 max., scary enough, but even Halbarad has a chance :wink:

But, nothing against proposed change really, though it would be a waste for a 'peaceful' WK to blow a turn, I mean the idea is also to play items/factions with this card...
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