Re Words of Power and Terror

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Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Fri May 09, 2008 6:21 am

Joe, you really do come up with some cool ideas! I also really like the Nazgul keyability to a site with Eye of Sauron.

It would be nice if this card and it's resulting Nazgul could be keyed to a Siege orc attack. Is it doable given that this happens during the site phase?
Last edited by Jambo on Fri May 09, 2008 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Fri May 09, 2008 9:11 am

yes, the Eye of Sauron keyability is a very nice idea indeed!

But, I would make it detainment when keyed to free-holds, and border holds too. I mean, we don't love squatters okay, but to make their life utterly impossible is not good either, what with Rebuild the Town and Alert the Folk we just invented. Eye of Sauron itself is already pretty good against squatters. Also, the nazgul didn't actually attack at Minas Tirith - the movies are once again misleading - their circling and screetching drove the defenders to despair...

I also like the Siege option Jambo proposes, but once again detainment. And keep it like Eye of Sauron limited to a squatting company, that is the purpose of Siege also, to keep them there. It's just so easy to play Siege on a site.

Also I would propose to bring the body increase from Words down to 6. If it's 7 you have less than average chance to defeat the strike, I think it's a little harsh for people doing their utmost to defeat the damned Thief or Abductor. In fact 6 is already very good.
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Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Fri May 09, 2008 11:56 am

I guess the way it's currently worded makes playing the Nazgul still quite hard Thorsten.

First, you need Eye of Sauron on a non-haven site, or for the company to be at Weathertop or Minas Tirith. Eye of Sauron was a card we didn't see a lot of during the virtual tourney because everyone was trying out the new active strategies, lol. Anyway, second, you still need to key an Orc, Man or Troll creature to the site, since the company will not be moving. For Border- and Free-holds, there's obviously men, for Ruins & Lairs there's orcs and trolls, and for Shadow-holds there's a ton of possibilities. So there's still quite a good combo required to get one Nazgul there, although perhaps there's no longer any need for the choose defending characters clause.
new Words of Power and Terror wrote:Playable on an Orc, Man, Troll or Mûmak strike if you reveal a Nazgûl from hand. If the strike has no body, it has 6 body, and the Nazgûl cannot be played as an event this movement/hazard phase. The next Nazgûl attack against the company this turn cannot be cancelled, chooses defending characters, and resulting body checks for the Nazgûl and character(s) are modified by +1. In addition, this attack may be keyed to Weathertop, Minas Tirith, or a non-haven site with Eye of Sauron. Cannot be duplicated on a given turn.
The wording here would mean Weathertop and Minas Tirith could still be targeted even if they are havens. For FWs, haven texts state all attacks are cancelled. This card however states the Nazgul attack cannot be cancelled. I suppose this would then work like Indur and his normal Unleashed card, i.e. that the attack gets through? :twisted:

Regards Siege, you could use Siege to set up your Eye of Sauron? But then you still need to play a Orc, Man or Troll creature.

I like it, and can almost visualise a nice cool hazard theme around it; one that's different to having to use Morgul Night and Fell Beasts...

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Post by Jambo » Fri May 09, 2008 12:18 pm

Regards Siege, you could use Siege to set up your Eye of Sauron? But then you still need to play a Orc, Man or Troll creature.
Unless of course you worded it like this:
new Words of Power and Terror wrote:Playable on an Orc, Man, Troll or Mûmak attack if you reveal a Nazgûl from hand. If the attack has no body, one strike has 6 body, and the Nazgûl cannot be played as an event this movement/hazard phase. The next Nazgûl attack against the company this turn cannot be cancelled, chooses defending characters, and resulting body checks for the Nazgûl and character(s) are modified by +1. In addition, this attack may be keyed to Weathertop, Minas Tirith, or a non-haven site with Eye of Sauron. Cannot be duplicated on a given turn.
Underlined part mine. This would mean you could play it on the Siege orc attack and as long as you had an Eye of Sauron available to play if the company's prevented from moving on its next turn, then bingo! Like I said, the Nazgul attack might need to be toned down a little by removing choose defenders...

Cool theme! :)

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Fri May 09, 2008 1:05 pm

yes very cool theme indeed. ok so most people were using active strats, but supposing you do want to play Rebuild the Town or Alert the Folk, then you've got your normal men hazards/sieges to deal with, you've got Eye of Sauron which is really not so nice, and then on top a nazgul attack (or three, nazgul will be very popular in meta game). umpf! (swallows).
It may not be pulled off that quickly because few people will include 3x Eye of Sauron in deck probably, but still, it's definitely not that hard either. Only remedy for squatter will be to leave the site and return later, if Siege doesn't prevent him.

Actually I'm not certain what's worse: non detainment or attacker chooses. still leaning towards detainment, also because attacker chooses is nice for the nazgul in general. but attacker chooses detainment is a bit stupid. hmm, have to invent something to make it a bit more balanced this, but the theme is awesome.
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Post by Jambo » Fri May 09, 2008 1:45 pm

Actually I was using an Alert the Folk and Rebuild the Town deck. One company squats, the other's out in Dragon country.

Remember though, these decks revolve around men characters and that also means women. I had Peath, Vygavril, Eowyn, and so a Nazgul at Lake-Town or Dale is often preferable than a Sellswords... Hence the reason why the Nazgul perhaps shouldn't choose defenders. :)

Eye of Sauron and Siege are both easily Marveled or Voiced, and like you say, it's unlikely someone will have 3 x Eye of Sauron and 3 x Siege, although that might be interesting to see. Plus your only allowed one WoPaT per turn, and therefore only one Nazgul per turn.

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Fri May 09, 2008 3:29 pm

okay, you've convinced me :wink: I didn't know that one per turn was decided on though, but I agree with it.

Don't you feel that having only one nazgul attack uncancellable seriously hampers the card if you can't choose defender? Of course you play it after another attack(s) so the chars may be tapped out, but still, you don't want to end up always killing Bombur, that would be the same effect as cancelling.
I proposed can't be duplicated on given attack, only for the bodycheck. unfortunately that does nothing for assassins.
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Post by Frodo » Fri May 09, 2008 6:02 pm

>The wording here would mean Weathertop and Minas Tirith could still be targeted even if they are havens. For FWs, haven texts state all attacks are cancelled. This card however states the Nazgul attack cannot be cancelled. I suppose this would then work like Indur and his normal Unleashed card, i.e. that the attack gets through?

Yes, my purposeful idea was that you could still nail FWs. However, you still need to target the haven with an Orc/Man/Troll creature, so good luck… will probably have to depend on somebody moving to the site instead.

RE: Siege
Remember that WOPaT is partly an elaborate way to get around people concealing a Nazgul attack. Therefore, originally I made WOPaT playable on a strike in order to circumvent opponent’s who saw the card played on an attack, and therefore cancelled the attack in response—now your Nazgul strategy is still screwed. But if it’s playable on a Strike, the opponent might choose to hold onto his concealer for something stronger, and now HE’S screwed because it’s too late to cancel the attack in the strike phase. I DO love the idea of getting the card to work with Siege. However, the way WOPaT is worded now creates new problems, beyond what I just mentioned, if we allow it playable on an attack. This is because the attack doesn’t specify it must be against the company. So you could play WOPaT on ANY hazard that creates orc attacks, such as Mordor in Arms, then nail the opponet with a Nazgul no matter where on the map he is! Also, when do you choose which strike gains body—or does this matter?

Question though: Can’t Words of Power STILL be played on Siege the way it’s currently worded? Strikes exist during the m/h phase, don’t they? If so, it means the Mordor in Arms problem still exists too, and we need some rewording all around.

It’s true that the Nazguls were mostly flying around the free-holds, however, the WK killed Theoden there! Also, I had the idea (from the book) that the WK was going to attack Minas Tirith himself if Gandalf and Eowyn did not ride out to stop him.

I don’t think attacker chooses detainment is that stupid. Could still be useful to the haz player too; tap the guy most likely to get the faction, etc. Still, I think this is a really elaborate combo and there’s nothing wrong with “chooses defending characters.” If the little ladies at Lake-town are that worried about their husbands, they’ll pack a Many Foes He Fought in their pearly-white hands.

Frodo

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Post by marcos » Fri May 09, 2008 8:26 pm

Question though: Can’t Words of Power STILL be played on Siege the way it’s currently worded? Strikes exist during the m/h phase, don’t they? If so, it means the Mordor in Arms problem still exists too, and we need some rewording all around.
i'd say yes, the strikes exists and it can be played on siege, mordor in arms and any man/orc/troll automatic attack IMO

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Post by Jambo » Sat May 10, 2008 10:08 am

Yes, I think Marcos is right. Plus that's the way Exile of Solitude must work. Presumably that can be played on any at Home on the table during any m/h phase. Therefore, there's no need to change the card from strike to attack.

Does the Mordor in Arms loophole matter, and what other cards would this work on other than Mordor in Arms? Presumably it couldn't be played on a Doubled Vigilance or Siege which has been played on a different company's site? That would be like tapping Adunaphel during one company's m/h phase to try to tap a character from a different company...

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Post by Frodo » Sat May 10, 2008 6:49 pm

I think I found the perfect wording:
new Words of Power and Terror wrote:
Playable on an Orc, Man, Troll or Mûmak creature strike (or strike at the company's new site) if you reveal a Nazgûl from hand. If the strike has no body, it has 6 body, and the Nazgûl cannot be played as an event this movement/hazard phase. The next Nazgûl attack against the company this turn cannot be cancelled, chooses defending characters, and resulting body checks for the Nazgûl and character(s) are modified by +1. In addition, this attack may be keyed to Weathertop, Minas Tirith, or a non-haven site with Eye of Sauron. Cannot be duplicated on a given turn.
There are cards besides Mordor in Arms that do the same thing, such the rescue attack created by Great Goblin, and I'm sure I'm missing some others. We need this wording if we think it's too weird that the building up of forces (MIA, rescue attacks, Doubled Vigilance) should result in a enhanced Nazgul attack somewhere completely different. It does require the player to know what "new site" means, but anyone who has read the CRF once should know that by now.

Is this okay?
--Frodo

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Sun May 11, 2008 9:29 am

I'm happy with that if you think that choosing defenders, even after a man, orc, or troll attack, is ok. Heroes don't have a version of Motionless Among the Slain, so it'll be good night Vienna for someone!

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Post by marcos » Mon May 12, 2008 8:48 pm

Jambo wrote:I'm happy with that if you think that choosing defenders, even after a man, orc, or troll attack, is ok. Heroes don't have a version of Motionless Among the Slain, so it'll be good night Vienna for someone!
cloudless day?

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Mon May 12, 2008 8:53 pm

Wow, I never knew there was such a card! :)

Well, that's cool for heroes then. Wonder why that never sees much play.

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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Mon May 12, 2008 9:00 pm

Because it's only if Gates is in Play. Rather cloggy and vulnerable and affects your opponent.

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