Re In Darkness Bind Them

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Jambo
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Re In Darkness Bind Them

Post by Jambo » Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:57 pm

In Darkness Bind Them
Unique. Playable on The Will of Sauron or a non-environment, non-unique hazard long-event. The first attempt to discard the targeted hazard event discards this card instead.

Now, the question here is regarding what would happen when IDBT is played on WoS and WoS is indirectly discarded through for example DoN leaving play.

Would the text on WoS, which states it has to be discarded when DoN leaves play, continue activating resulting in first IDBT and then WoS being discarded? Or, would IDBT get discarded and WoS remain in play even though DoN has gone?

If the latter, would adding 'directly' to 'The first attempt to directly cancel or discard the targeted hazard event discards this card instead' make any difference?

(I asked the same question to Konrad. He's a rules guru.)

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Post by Jambo » Mon Feb 25, 2008 11:16 pm

Big question is do we want WoS to be discarded when a GoM or Twilight is played to remove the accompanying DoN? As it stands, an IDBT played on a WoS would protect it from being discarded when DoN leaves play.

If this is viewed as being undesirable or potentially too powerful then something to this effect could be added:

"The first resource effect that targets to discard the target hazard event discards this card instead."

This would continue to protect a WoS from a MT or VoM or Palantir of Osgiliath, but it would not protect it from its own self-discarding condition if DoN should leave play.

Thoughts?

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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:59 am

I wouldn't change it. It can protect against Doors leaving play -- but is that going to make a huge difference?

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Post by marcos » Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:40 pm

let's keep it the way it is made?

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Post by Jambo » Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:47 pm

Fine with me. :twisted:

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Post by Frodo » Sun May 18, 2008 11:53 pm

But it DOES make a huge difference, doesn't it? Let's say the opponent has a Snowstorm, Doors, and Will of Sauron in play with IDBT on Will, and I've been getting knocked back by this Snowstorm for a while now. I finally thrown down a Gates of Morning. Normally, my opponent can only counter this with a twilight, but now IDBT will protect Will of Sauron, which means Gates will come into play but Snowstorm will STILL remain in play (even with Gates out!) because Will says that "all hazard long-events remain in play until this card is discarded."

Not only is this a really powerful way to keep Snowstorm in play (I can't even play more copies of Gates in hopes of killing this haz long event, because Gates is already in play!), but it's really really strange.

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Post by Frodo » Sun May 18, 2008 11:56 pm

One more comment on IDBT:

After playing against this card, I really think it needs the following line added to limit its power--“discard this card and target long-event when any play deck is exhausted”--otherwise, you can exhaust and Will of Sauron won’t go away. Neither will IDBT. Which is also too strong... why should 3 copies of
your Minions Stir stay on table forever because the opponent can't draw 2 Marvels Tolds?

Frodo

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Post by Bandobras Took » Mon May 19, 2008 12:57 am

Frodo wrote:Why should 3 copies of
your Minions Stir stay on table forever because the opponent can't draw 2 Marvels Tolds? Frodo
Mainly because Minions Stir cannot be duplicated. :)

If I'm not packing Promptings/Piercing in my sideboard, don't I deserve to get nailed by roadblock?

Why won't IDBT go away when a play deck is exhausted? Will of Sauron is discarded when any play deck is exhausted; therefore In Darkness will be discarded in its stead.

Even should a situation arise where Doors has left play and In Darkness has prevented Will of Sauron from leaving play, Will of Sauron is still vulnerable then to Marvels Told, Voices of Malice, the Palantir of Osgiliath, and even the Cock Crows if Gates is in play.

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Post by Frodo » Mon May 19, 2008 1:51 am

Mainly because Minions Stir cannot be duplicated. Smile
Doh!

:oops:
If I'm not packing Promptings/Piercing in my sideboard, don't I deserve to get nailed by roadblock?
Well, No. At least, not in a method that makes Gates of Morning defunct.
Even should a situation arise where Doors has left play and In Darkness has prevented Will of Sauron from leaving play, Will of Sauron is still vulnerable then to Marvels Told, Voices of Malice, the Palantir of Osgiliath, and even the Cock Crows if Gates is in play.
I think I missed the fact that Gates would at least knock out IBT, so only one more Marvels, etc. is needed. Still it's rather strange that Gates and Will can be in play. But I may also be misunderstanding Will of Sauron, a card that I don't think I've ever seen played. If Will is in play, can a player still target Snowstorm with Twilight--or does Will prevent Twilight? In other words, does Will of Sauron's text only stop haz long-events from being discarded during the long-event phase?

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Post by Bandobras Took » Mon May 19, 2008 3:37 am

All hazard long-events remain in play until this card is discarded. Discard this card when Doors of Night leaves play, or when any play deck is exhausted. When this card is discarded, all hazard long-events are discarded. Cannot be duplicated.
For any hazard Long Event to be discarded, Will of Sauron must leave play, but when it does, all hazard long events are discarded. Nothing about any specific phase.

However, in the case of Twilight, doesn't it make more sense to knock out Doors with Twilight if you see In the Darkness Bind Them in play and play Gates after Bind Them has gone?

I will concede that Roadblock is annoying, but if we reduce Will of Sauron/In Darkness to too easily discardable, we're back where we started, which is what you've mentioned: nobody is going to use Will of Sauron because it does more harm than good to hazard long events.

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Post by Frodo » Mon May 19, 2008 3:49 am

However, in the case of Twilight, doesn't it make more sense to knock out Doors with Twilight if you see In the Darkness Bind Them in play and play Gates after Bind Them has gone?
I'm missing your meaning. Can you explain what you're saying with an example?

No matter what path we choose with the card, we have to consider roadblock. Making a entire roadblock strategy stoppable only by the play of 2 Marvels Tolds, as opposed to the play of one (or even all!) of the 3 Gates and 3 Twilights in your deck, is a big deal.

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Post by Bandobras Took » Mon May 19, 2008 4:05 am

Actually, I have no clue what I was thinking, either. Please ignore that whole Twilight comment as the product of a deranged mind. :)

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Post by Jambo » Mon May 19, 2008 7:27 am

Frodo wrote:But I may also be misunderstanding Will of Sauron, a card that I don't think I've ever seen played. If Will is in play, can a player still target Snowstorm with Twilight--or does Will prevent Twilight? In other words, does Will of Sauron's text only stop haz long-events from being discarded during the long-event phase?
This is a good question! It's the old issue of which card's effects wins out if they're conflicting, and the reason it's probably never been answered for WoS before is because nobody ever plays WoS in normal games. This has also probably never been an issue before since most people would simply target the WoS with their MT or VoM.

I do believe Twilight can still target and discard any environment long-event card even if WoS is in play, and VoM/MT can still target any non-environment long-event for discard. My understanding is that WoS just stops long-events from being discarded when they normally would, i.e. like making them into permanent events. For evidence of this, one can also look at the next sentence on WoS: "Discard this card when Doors leaves play, or when any play deck is exhausted." That doesn't mean that WoS can't be discarded through other means, such as being MT or VoM! Therefore the same logic should also apply to the long-events it keeps in play.

Normally, as Ben says, it makes more sense to target Doors than Long Winter, however, if you're opponent has another Doors in hand then you're going to get screwed anyway. If you know they have another Doors, then you'd be wiser picking the Long Winter. ;)

Gates coming into play will take out all hazard environments even if there's an IDBT on Will of Sauron. The IDBT will however save the Will of Sauron from discard which is the idea behind the card.

Lastly, it is a Unique card so playing it yourself will mean your opponent can't.

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Post by Frodo » Wed May 28, 2008 4:51 am

If you're right, Jambo, then my mind is more at ease.

I still want to put down some objections here while they're fresh in my mind; I just realized this in a game the other day. This is very important: the problem with IDBT on Will of Sauron with roadblock events out is not such much that these roadblock events will become permanent, but rather that the supplementary long events such as Morgul Night and Fell Winter that a hazard player must play to combo with Snowstorm and Foul Fumes **are also now made permanent**. In a normal game, a resource player could see these combos hit the table, wince at their effect, and at least know that they were unlikely to be around during the next m/h. Also, in a normal game a resource player could at least try to *avoid* wildernesses for all his companies (or avoid double wilderness sites for the worse effect of FF and LW), but now avoiding such things is almost impossible (for Snowstorm) and, I think, *100 percent absolutely impossible* (in the case of Fell Winter, Fumes, Morgul, Long Winter). Sure, one company can use a Promptings to avoid site-tapping; but all of your companies?

If Jambo is right about the interplay with Gates, I'm willing to delay judgment on IDBT interacting with roadblock until I see more examples of its brokenness in play. But if Gates, Twilight, avoiding sites, and waiting until the next turn all won't help you, and your only solution is to draw up a promptings for one of your companies (which you may not have if you rely on a Gates strategy), or draw up two marvels told, or get one Gates through and use a Marvels, or exhaust your deck twice... and suffer in the meanwhile... well, that ain't too pretty!

Frodo


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Post by Jambo » Wed May 28, 2008 9:07 am

Given that the WoS staying around after Doors leaving the table is a new concept that's never been possible until now, all that's really required is a clarification in the VC clarifications thread.

IDBT is my favourite card of the set simply because of the cool possibilities and unpredictability it can bring to the game, not only to hazard long-events in general, but also to the previously, rather redundant, WoS card. IDBT is a unique card, and therefore inherently unreliable as part of any hazard strategy, and on top of this, playing it yourself will stop your opponent = hand clog. Moreover, WoS will, and often does, backfire (Bert's Balance of Things springs to mind).

Therefore, instead of lessening (or nerfing) the cool impact that this card can have, perhaps a better alternative is to think up a resource for improving chances of dealing with roadblock. Particularly the situation with Foul Fumes and Morgul Night, which minion players can play without fear of repercussion on their own companies! Promptings is nice, but it requires an untapped Ranger (yet another reason to litter companies with Rangers) and comes with a hefty 2 cps. Maybe an alternative card for scouts? After all, why can't they find their way through difficult terrain or weather? Just look at Gollum for an good example, and it might give people more reason to play Gollum.

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