Nazgul are Abroad and Half an Eye Open

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Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:26 pm

Thorsten wrote:Reading this once again, it dawned on me there is a rather nasty possibility for abuse the way it is phrased now. I can play any card under HaEO from sideboard, and then just discard it myself with a marvels...that's no good.
Can you give any specific examples of when this might be useful or exploitable? The way it is currently worded already allows this to occur, but to my knowledge I haven't seen anyone use it in this way, yet.

If it's for hazards, tapping a Nazgul or halving the limit is better and more efficient way. If it's for resources, well, other than characters and Back to the Fray, I can't think of many situations where this might be all that great, or more useful than tapping your wizard...

One could of course move the phrase for what can be played from underneath these cards to the first sentence, but this would mean you'd always have to show your opponent what cards you're putting underneath TNaA or HaEO, e.g.:

"When this card is played, take up to four cards that mention a named Dragon or the word “Dragon” in their game text or title from your discard pile (or sideboard if Doors of Night is in play) and place them face down with this card. If an "at Home" Dragon manifestation is in play, you may play non-unique short- or permanent-event hazards (except Parsimony of Seclusion) placed with this card as if they were in your hand. Hazards targeting unique Dragon creatures do not count against the hazard limit. Prowess of Age can only be played to give a prowess bonus. Discard when your play deck is exhausted. "

marcos
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Post by marcos » Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:34 pm

If it's for hazards, tapping a Nazgul or halving the limit is better and more efficient way. If it's for resources, well, other than characters and Back to the Fray, I can't think of many situations where this might be all that great, or more useful than tapping your wizard...
dragon factions + parsimony/ from the pits of angband...
WK/ blades + wku
FWs and recycler cards like ring of fire, pocketed robes, etc
factions and hornsx3
"When this card is played, take up to four cards that mention a named Dragon or the word “Dragon” in their game text or title from your discard pile (or sideboard if Doors of Night is in play) "
just do for both TNaA and HaEO:
"When this card is played, take up to four hazard cards from your discard pile (or sideboard if Doors of Night is in play)"

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:52 pm

marcos wrote:there's something that still worries me. As far as i know, the process of bring a card into play is first declare and then resolve. If i am not wrong, then you can still play a scimitar and according to annotation 6, the discarding of the nazgul will resolve before the card actually enters play, so my concern is about TNaA does prevent that or not? The way i see it, you will still be able to play 1 scimitar and then TNaA triggers preventing the next nazgul discarding effects... I don't understand how annotation 1 affects our concerns, can you explain me a bit?
Annotation 1 states that the card has to resolve before it's considered in play. As scimitars resolves, TNaA effects would prevent the active condition of discarding the Nazgul from being carried through. If the active condition cannot be satisfied, the card can't be played. That's the theory anyway. ;)

Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:13 pm

That's how I always interpreted it as well: you play Scimitar, you try to resolve it, can't discard a nazgul, hence Scimitars fizzle. On the other hand, if it were in your hand and you wouldn't have nazgul on table for example, you wouldn't have been allowed to play it for no effect. By this reasoning you shouldn't even be able to play Scimitars in the first place from under TNaA.

about the sideboarding: well of course there's other ways, wiz./nazgul/halving hl, but those might not be handy or available at the moment. Or you can have super access during one turn (and use Favor of the Valar), or just before you cycle have a lot of cards over. Marcos summed it up neatly, FW can benefit nicely, also with a nice Eye of Sauron V your wiz. may be tapped alot. It just depends on the situation. You consider halving hl something normal, well first you depend on opponent (if he plays avatarless you're screwed, also if he draws avatar last turn :D ), and having less hazards to play is not very nice either...
the solution Marcos mentions still leaves options for any hazard, just not resources. Since you relocated the 'mentions dragon or drake' part, your version is not much longer than the original, but much more adequate, unless of course you like the trick for hazards. So I'd go with that one.
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.

Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:32 am

Lots to comment on here:

First, the CRF entry is badly worded, however, there is a difference between "in play" and "played". Once you understand that, the contradiction in the CRF statements becomes more clear. The best explanation of this is in the Play and Examples file under "Resolve", created by Mark Alfano. Cards that are declared but not yet resolved are "played", but they are not "in play." Once a card is declared AND resolved, it would be what a player commonly calls (and the CRF) "in play." Remember that the CRF also says somewhere else that "playing a card is the action of taking it out of your hand"; thus, this is synonymous with declaration.

This is all a long way of saying that marcos is right. As Jambo pointed out in his original example, discarding the nazgul would be considered PART of the cost of playing Scimitars, therefore it would circumvent TNAA's restriction.

I think we may be overdoing the fine points on this card. We'll have to go back to our original idea of listing the card exclusions--I don't see any other way.

Also, I really don't like the Doors of Night prohibition. Doors is definitely not needed in a Nazgul attack deck, or even a Dragon/drake deck (though there are benefits in the dragon one) and on a lesser note, I'd like players not be tempted to use roadblock (to make the deck efficient, or "overdetermined" as Mark says in his last newsletter article) just because they want to use Nazguls to attack. Except for Scimitars these cards are already not too strong.

I'm okay with listing "hazards" on the cards you must take, but I don't like the idea of showing the opponent the cards. This really interrupts the "fun and fear" factor of your opponent not knowing what you got up your sleeve (or in the dragons's wakeful eye). We have to remember that Marvels Told and Voices of Malice is one of the most desirable cards to have in a deck; a player will think hard before deciding that it's worth playing HaE for 5 hazards in the discard pile and then wasting his own Marvels (and tapping a sage!), rather than simply cutting the hazard limit. There are always little un-thematic tricks that players can do with many cards in the game and I think we should accept them provided that: a) they are not game-breaking b) correcting the issue would create a loss of something else.

Also, we should keep the "free hazard" clause for Dragons--sideboard access merely allows you to grab the 4 needed hazards faster, not to play more of them.

Frodo

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:07 am

So we're back to where we started essentially, presuming the DoN condition and the tapped/discard restriction go. Frodo, could you clarify if the free hazards for HaEO should be playable from the hand as well as from underneath HaEO? HaEO doesn't make any distinction as to whether they're only possible from underneath the card (like TNaA).
New TNaA wrote:When this card is played, take up to four cards from your discard pile and place them face down with this card. If there is a Nazgûl in play, you may play non-unique hazards placed with this card that have the word “Nazgûl” in their game text (except Long Dark Reach, Morgul Horse and Scimitars of Steel) as if they were in your hand. Once per turn, a card played this way does not count against the hazard limit. Discard when your play deck is exhausted.
New HaEO wrote:When this card is played, take up to four cards from your discard pile and place them face down with this card. If an "at Home" Dragon manifestation is in play, you may play non-unique short- or permanent-event hazards (except Parsimony of Seclusion) placed with this card that mention a named Dragon or the word “Dragon” in their game text or title as if they were in your hand. Hazards targeting unique Dragon creatures do not count against the hazard limit. Prowess of Age can only be played to give a prowess bonus. Discard when your play deck is exhausted.

Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:19 am

Don't understand, you have to mention the "card that mention a named Dragon or the word “Dragon” in their game text or title" anyway, why not mention it in the restriction to play them under this card? You don't have to show opponent, that's just part of fair play. :?

I still think you're taking this halving hl option too light, I've had games where I was desperately hoping for my opponent to play his avatar to sideboard in my Nameless Things. Don't forget you're basing most of your hazard-strategy on getting things from the sideboard. I can't do squat with my unique dragon's if I don't have the Desolation/Rumor/Frenzy/Fever. So I'd say you're then obliged to include the Nazguls. Pitty.
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Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:48 am

Thorsten, ideally that would be the best option. However, on GCCG and in the tournament scene a lot of players would ask you to verify the card, particularly if the GCCG software or someone standing close by can't help.

Speaking for myself, I wouldn't care if I saw the cards or not, but I couldn't say for sure others would feel the same way. It would just take one person to break this fair play, and then we'd be in the same situation as we are with Uvatha on GCCG, where most people now reveal the creature.

Agus mentioned in the tourney feedback thread that 2 or 3 tribes should also be excluded. Thoughts?

Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:07 am

Yeah but on the one hand you (Frodo) say the abuse is not likely, because it's easier to sideboard via nazgul/wiz/hl, in other words: why bother?, and then you do feel people need to show they're not cheating. That's not very consistent. At least if you mention the stacking conditions people have the moral obligation to use only dragon cards, and there is a way to discover the cheat, otherwise all hazards are legal.

I just thought of another thing as well. If you allow all hazards it is definitely preferable to halving or nazgul, because opponent might want to voice/marvel it as well, being scared you might hit him with dragon hazards. So this is an ultimate bluff card...

Of course, if no sideboard option is open, it all doesn't matter. :cry:

Exclude the Two Tribes then, it's not thematic anyway.
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Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:35 am

If you know you're going to need lots of hazards or resources from the sideboard, you will still have to pack Unexpected Outposts, Weigh all Things, Smoke Rings, and Longbottom Leafs. So, if you then proceed to put your important sideboard cards underneath TNAA or HAEO, you'll need to hope either you or your opponent has used a MT or VoM before you draw one or more of the access cards. Doing it yourself requires a 2-card combo, whereas just accessing them from the sideboard requires just one card or one action.

Of course, with the now reduced scope of TNaA there's always the possibility that your opponent may no longer decide to waste his MT or VoM on TNAA or HAEO. Meanwhile your cards underneath TNAA remain trapped until you draw a MT/VoM, tap a sage, undergo a cc, and even then you still have to find a way to get them from the discard.

I'm not convinced that's as enticing an option and one might think.

Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:52 am

I'm not suggesting you would do that with hazards you badly need, but lots of hazards in sideboard can be useful, in general, or at some specific moment. I can just load it with Muster Disperse for example, or Roving Eye, or whatever, and then drop them on opponent in 2nd cycle.
Anyway, if it's not an enticing option, then there's little risk with people cheating, like I said :wink:
Of course you're not suggesting someone would use his Outposts to cycle in the dragon support cards needed for HaEO? that would be stupid.
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Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:40 pm

Seems we've reached a bit of an impasse with HaEO and TNaA. Here's a summary of what we need to decide upon:

1. Decide which cards definitely can't be played with TNaA - Two or Three Tribes Present, Helms, Scimitars, Morgul Horse, Long Dark Reach, Fury of the Iron Crown, Words of Power and Terror (although this is subject to possible modification itself).

2. Decide how both interact with sideboard and/or discard, and whether DoN should be involved.

3. Decide on their own methods of discard.

4. Decide how the freebies work with HaEO - from underneath only or from hand too (as it the wording would currently suggest it works).

5. Decide if there should be restrictions on which cards can be brought from sideboard/discard. If there are, do the cards need to be shown or is there a way to circumvent this.

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Post by Frodo » Sat Apr 26, 2008 1:11 am

I think I didn’t explain myself very well. When I said I didn’t want Doors to be involved, I meant that I still wanted the “from sideboard” function *without* Doors.

As far as freebies, they work for attached cards only on TNaA. Reason being is not balance, it’s because I don’t see any other way to word this without inviting confusion. “Such hazards do not count,” “such named hazards”, none of these phrases are specific enough. Freebies work from hand with HaEO, and for either player.

Here’s where we are with the cards, then:

New TNaA:
When this card is played, take up to four hazards from your discard pile or sideboard and place them face down with this card. If there is a Nazgûl in play, you may play non-unique hazards placed with this card that have the word “Nazgûl” in their game text (except Long Dark Reach, Morgul Horse and Scimitars of Steel) as if they were in your hand. Once per turn, a card played this way does not count against the hazard limit. Discard when your play deck is exhausted.

New HaEO wrote:
When this card is played, take up to four hazards from your discard pile or sideboard and place them face down with this card. If an "at Home" Dragon manifestation is in play, you may play non-unique short- or permanent-event hazards (except Parsimony of Seclusion) placed with this card that mention a named Dragon or the word “Dragon” in their game text or title as if they were in your hand. Hazards targeting unique Dragon creatures do not count against the hazard limit. Prowess of Age can only be played to give a prowess bonus. Discard when your play deck is exhausted.


Thorsten: Meccg CRF Rules say that when anything more than “type” (hazard or resource template) of card is indicated, the entire card must be shown. We can’t circumvent that, so it goes beyond play ethics.

DISCARDING ON DECK EXHAUST: Is everyone okay with the above as a working model for now? We still need to figure out what happens when you discard a deck. Can we review the pros and cons of what methods are best for what results?

ALLOWING SCIMITARS: I wish I could think of a way to allow Scimitars but the only one I can think of is very clunky and would say something like “…take up to four hazards from discard pile or sideboard that do not duplicate each other in name,” but this would mean that you are required, by MECCG Rules, to show them to the other player.

Oh my god… I just thought of something crazy. (I know, I always do.) We could just add a line like: “You must discard an additional Nazgul to play Scimitars of Steel.” Wouldn’t that solve the problem?

Frodo

p.s. on a completely unrelated note, I’m having trouble doing the newsletter because I don’t have Indesign cs 3 for mac, or the newest Quark for mac. Anybody got it?

Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Sat Apr 26, 2008 1:17 am

Forgot to mention that today I finally played a successful dragon combo on Btook for the first time! And I know that n=1 is not good evidence, but i've played the deck 14 times now and today was the best time any really good combo came out of it. 1) Itangast on Summons 2) Itangast attacks 3-character company with Snaga moving to Lake-town with Mischief on it 3A) I play Dragon's Breath 3B) I play Subtlety 3c) I play Dragon's Curse. Even so, it would have been almost nothing if he had just one concealer. Or even a Sage available. And for it to be this cool, i needed a fire-breather! AND... he only got one guy killed!

But for the first four turns I couldn't draw ANY dragon-at-homes--Thorsten is right, requiring the nazgul really hurt me, and Ben didn't have his FW saruman out yet from problems of his own.
So I don't think HaE is overpowered and it needs the help we have suggested.

Frodo

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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Sat Apr 26, 2008 1:29 am

And my deck was Dragon-country anyway, so definitely not too powerful.

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