Smoke Rings & Weigh All Things to a Nicety

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2018 ARV should be posted here.
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the Jabberwock
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Smoke Rings & Weigh All Things to a Nicety

Post by the Jabberwock » Tue May 01, 2018 4:02 am

SMOKE RINGS ‐ Short‐event (C)
Bring one resource or character from your sideboard or discard pile into your play deck and shuffle.
WEIGH ALL THINGS TO A NICETY ‐ Short‐event (C)
Bring one resource or character (including a Ringwraith) from your sideboard or discard pile into your play deck and shuffle.

The status quo for Smoke Rings and Weigh All Things to a Nicety is that they may not be used to take a card of the opposite alignment into your play deck (ie. for Fallen Wizard play). This was due to the following rule from the MEWH rule book:
A hero resource card may not target/affect a minion site card or a minion resource card. A minion resource
card may not target/affect a hero site card or a hero resource card.
However, there is a solid argument that the play of Smoke/Weigh does not directly target or affect the card being selected from the sideboard/discard pile but rather targets the player (if there is a target) who then performs an action.

Reference Topic of discussion: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2888&hilit=smokerings

I propose this situation be cleared up by giving the following 2 options on the ballot:

PICK ONE WHICH YOU PREFER:

Clarifications:
Smoke Rings: May not be used to bring an opposite alignment card into your play deck.
Weigh All Things to a Nicety: May not be used to bring an opposite alignment card into your play deck.
This is aligned with the status quo.

OR

Clarifications:
Smoke Rings: May be used to bring an opposite alignment card into your play deck.
Weigh All Things to a Nicety: May be used to bring an opposite alignment card into your play deck.
This reverses the status quo.

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Shapeshifter
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Re: Smoke Rings & Weigh All Things to a Nicety

Post by Shapeshifter » Tue May 01, 2018 12:41 pm

For the sake of completeness I suggest to add a clarification about fetching characters with Smoke Rings / Weigh all Things.

From what I know Fallen Wizard players may use both cards to get either a hero or a minion character card.

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the Jabberwock
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Re: Smoke Rings & Weigh All Things to a Nicety

Post by the Jabberwock » Thu May 03, 2018 8:38 am

Yes, good idea. The White Hand rules only forbid targeting an opposite alignment site or resource card. They don't say anything about characters.

PICK ONE WHICH YOU PREFER:

Clarifications:
Smoke Rings: May not be used to bring an opposite alignment resource card into your play deck. An opposite alignment character card is permitted.
Weigh All Things to a Nicety: May not be used to bring an opposite alignment resource card into your play deck. An opposite alignment character card is permitted.
This is aligned with the status quo.

OR

Clarifications:
Smoke Rings: May be used to bring an opposite alignment resource or character card into your play deck.
Weigh All Things to a Nicety: May be used to bring an opposite alignment resource or character card into your play deck.
This reverses the status quo (in regards to the resource cards)

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Re: Smoke Rings & Weigh All Things to a Nicety

Post by Theo » Fri May 04, 2018 5:35 am

the Jabberwock wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 8:38 am
This is aligned with the status quo.
Sorry mate, having a hard time getting how you've decided you can make this claim. I'd prefer language such as "this was enforced at international tournament X" if that were actually the case.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.

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Re: Smoke Rings & Weigh All Things to a Nicety

Post by the Jabberwock » Fri May 04, 2018 6:06 am

Theo wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 5:35 am
the Jabberwock wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 8:38 am
This is aligned with the status quo.
Sorry mate, having a hard time getting how you've decided you can make this claim. I'd prefer language such as "this was enforced at international tournament X" if that were actually the case.

I'm making the claim based on the following quote from the Reference Topic linked in the OP:
Shapeshifter wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:53 pm
This is probably another case of that the rules actually say something different from what everybody plays for 20 years.
It should be definitely decided upon by the Net Rep Team. I think there is also something like a "rule of habit" that should weigh heavily before making such a big change.
Since Shapeshifter has been a very active participant in large tournaments and gatherings for many years, I trust his opinion on how this rule is widely interpreted (ie. the status quo).

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Re: Smoke Rings & Weigh All Things to a Nicety

Post by Theo » Fri May 04, 2018 7:06 am

the Jabberwock wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 6:06 am
Since Shapeshifter has been a very active participant in large tournaments and gatherings for many years, I trust his opinion on how this rule is widely interpreted (ie. the status quo).
Unfortunately, his statement is even more obviously in err, since I am aware of players that did not play this way for the last 20 years. But this is because I value precise language.

Perhaps when I have a good chunk of time I can try to make a separate thread about the alienation of excessive representational claims, to avoid derailing this thread too much. But I'll throw out a couple topics now:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consensus_effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_cascade
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_attribution_error

[edited to depersonalize]
Last edited by Theo on Sat May 05, 2018 5:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.

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Re: Smoke Rings & Weigh All Things to a Nicety

Post by the Jabberwock » Fri May 04, 2018 4:06 pm

@ Theo -

My friend. Your opinion and the way you interpret and play a certain MECCG rule is most certainly valued. That is why there is a healthy debate to be had... not everyone plays or interprets rules the same. However, for the sake of simplicity and clarity, it can be beneficial to determine how the majority of current players approach a particular rule situation. This is not in an attempt to steer the masses in any particular direction, but rather to allow clarity on the current situation that exists. When members are contemplating a rule vote, it can be beneficial for them to have quick context on what is or is not changing with their vote. Nobody is saying that the status quo represents every individual, nor that said individuals and their methods of play are unimportant.

I think it is safe to say that these are all the status quo:

- A Malady Without Healing may target your opponent's character.
- Leaflock and Skinbark may move to Redhorn Gate (even though their text only permits Redhorn Gap - which doesn't exist).
- Strider is allowed to take searched item into his hand.
etc....

This doesn't mean that those who play the above as such are unequivocally correct, it just represents this is by large the common opinion. There will always be dissenters.

If there is an argument to be made that the above Smoke Rings interpretation is closer to a 50/50 situation in the community, rather than a solid majority, I will be happy to remove the status quo comment.

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the Jabberwock
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Re: Smoke Rings & Weigh All Things to a Nicety

Post by the Jabberwock » Fri May 04, 2018 4:14 pm

Theo wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 7:06 am
But this is because I value precise language.
I also value precise language, but not at the expense of having fun playing the game. To use Freeze the Flesh or Far Sight as examples, I would rather have a card usable as intended, rather than a complete waste of cardboard due to being extremely precise.

That said, I am also in favor of fixing the language so that it is both precise and usable.

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Re: Smoke Rings & Weigh All Things to a Nicety

Post by Theo » Sat May 05, 2018 5:31 pm

I did not mean the example to make this about me in the least, and I'll be editing my earlier post to try to reinforce that. The point I was trying to make was just that "the common opinion" is not an easily-measurable quality. For all of the players that one of us interacts with and assesses their opinion, there could be two or conceivably millions of others that have a different opinion---one simply cannot know. I understand the spirit of what your statements are about, but language that acknowledges the limitations of measurement, such as "this is the way it has been played when it has come up by nearly all of the hundreds of knowledgeable players I know of," or even "this seems to be the status quo" rather than "this is," would be more accurate in an important way for me.

But this is getting a bit astray, for what was meant as a passing point.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.

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Re: Smoke Rings & Weigh All Things to a Nicety

Post by Moriquendi » Fri May 11, 2018 4:34 pm

Adding my 2c to this thread -

I am of the opinion that Smoke Rings/Weigh All Things should be able to pull ANY resource (hero/minion/stage) or character card (including Agents) for FW players since the effect is not targeting or affecting the cards being pulled.

A hero resource event card may not target/affect a minion site card or a minion resource card.
A minion resource event card may not target/affect a hero site card or a hero resource card.


Otherwise, you get into a slippery slope situation with other non-targeted effect cards like Dark Tryst - is this only allowed to draw Minion Resource cards from your deck?

Since all non-orc/troll characters in a FW's company are considered "hero characters" wouldn't that prevent a Fallen Wizard from tapping to bring Minion Resources into his play deck or discard pile?

The obvious reason for this rule's existence are things like using a Hero "Muster" on a Minion "Dragon Roused" faction.

The caveat though is that I also feel there should be a rule on FW deck construction preventing them including 2 copies of both Hero and Minion cards that are completely identical, thus allowing for a FW player to have 4 copies of that effect available (unintended IMO).

Some Examples:
Smoke Rings & Weigh All Things to a Nicety
Marvels Told & Voices of Malice
A Nice Place to Hide & Concealment
Bold Thrust & Risky Blow
Hide in Dark Places & Hiding
Orc Quarrels & Dark Quarrels
Secrets of Their Forging & Ringlore
(stacking any of these two minor items below should also not be allowed)
Blazon of the Eye & Horn of Anor
Healing Herbs & Foul-Smelling Paste
Orc-Draughts & Potion of Prowess
Miruvor & Orc-Liquor
Strange Rations & Cram
etc.

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Re: Smoke Rings & Weigh All Things to a Nicety

Post by Bandobras Took » Fri May 11, 2018 4:47 pm

Moriquendi wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 4:34 pm
Adding my 2c to this thread -

I am of the opinion that Smoke Rings/Weigh All Things should be able to pull ANY resource (hero/minion/stage) or character card (including Agents) for FW players since the effect is not targeting or affecting the cards being pulled.
That is indeed the question; there are arguments for and against. However:
Otherwise, you get into a slippery slope situation with other non-targeted effect cards like Dark Tryst - is this only allowed to draw Minion Resource cards from your deck?
The draw action targets the deck.
Since all non-orc/troll characters in a FW's company are considered "hero characters" wouldn't that prevent a Fallen Wizard from tapping to bring Minion Resources into his play deck or discard pile?
No, because only resources are forbidden from cross-alignment targeting.
The obvious reason for this rule's existence are things like using a Hero "Muster" on a Minion "Dragon Roused" faction.
Muster affects the influence check, not the faction.
The caveat though is that I also feel there should be a rule on FW deck construction preventing them including 2 copies of both Hero and Minion cards that are completely identical, thus allowing for a FW player to have 4 copies of that effect available (unintended IMO).
But none are completely identical, as hero versions are not usable by Orcs/Trolls. Even then, Ringlore and Secrets of Their Forging are not completely identical, as Ringlore doesn't care what the type of ring could normally be a result.

Stacking four of a given card type was completely intended. That's why FWs don't get to put three copies of a given resource in their deck. This works out to only getting two of resources that don't have an analogue, but getting up to four of those that do. (As opposed to three and six, respectively.)
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly.

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Re: Smoke Rings & Weigh All Things to a Nicety

Post by Moriquendi » Fri May 11, 2018 7:17 pm

Bandobras Took wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 4:47 pm
That is indeed the question; there are arguments for and against. However:

The draw action targets the deck.
Then I guess the question is whether "Bring" is considered an action with a target of the sideboard or discard pile then?


*edit* moving some of the other discussion points into a separate rules thread for FW resource play.

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Re: Smoke Rings & Weigh All Things to a Nicety

Post by Moriquendi » Fri May 11, 2018 11:21 pm

Similarly for Longbottom Leaf - is "Take" considered an action targeting the Sideboard?

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Re: Smoke Rings & Weigh All Things to a Nicety

Post by rezwits » Sat May 12, 2018 4:40 am

When you ballot this, I suggest, breaking things down into some kind of mini-survey

i.e.

Hero Only?
Minion Only?
Opposite Resources (too)?
Opposite Characters (too)?
Stage Resources (too)?

If you're gonna do it, do it...

and then figure the proper wording or pony up all the various verbiage for choices...

My vote would be
Hero Only? YES (Smoke)
Minion Only? YES (Weigh)
Opposite Resources? NO
Opposite Characters? NO
Stage Resources? YES

Long Bottom and Ancient Secrets SAME DIFFERENCE!! (Nazgûl only but there are exceptions)

PEACE!
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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Re: Smoke Rings & Weigh All Things to a Nicety

Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Mon May 14, 2018 10:14 am

What's the purpose of such a mini-survey? Either it doesn't target the card and it can be used to pull any resource/character, or it does.
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