Cave-drake

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2018 ARV should be posted here.
User avatar
Khamul the Easterling
Posts: 127
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:16 pm
Location: Cologne
Contact:

Cave-drake

Post by Khamul the Easterling » Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:23 pm

The creature type of Cave-drake is "dragon".

My proposal is this term be replaced by the keyword "drake".

Reasoning: The only other dragons in ME are the unique ones bearing names. I cannot see any reason why cave-drake should make an exception. The objection that ICE had plenty of time to make an erratum and never did so does not justify the current status in terms of game mechanics.

User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 2601
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

Re: Cave-drake

Post by Bandobras Took » Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:04 am

While I agree, I think this one is a lower priority.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly.

User avatar
Shapeshifter
Council Member
Posts: 501
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:16 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Cave-drake

Post by Shapeshifter » Tue May 01, 2018 6:50 pm

Well, this one is obvious for thematic reasons.

Then again most of the very nice cards that can only be played on dragons see very little play because the unique dragons are very limited in their playability. As long as Cave-drake keeps it's dragon-status there are better chances to build a viable hazard strategy around those hazard-events.

User avatar
Khamul the Easterling
Posts: 127
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:16 pm
Location: Cologne
Contact:

Re: Cave-drake

Post by Khamul the Easterling » Tue May 01, 2018 6:57 pm

Then why not convert all drakes into dragons?

User avatar
the Jabberwock
Council Chairman
Posts: 801
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:46 am

Re: Cave-drake

Post by the Jabberwock » Wed May 02, 2018 3:53 pm

I have often scratched my head and wondered why Cave-Drake was a Dragon type rather than a Drake. Clearly, this is simply because the Drake creature type wasn't invented until The Dragons expansion and when ICE created The Wizards, they must not have yet known that the Drake creature type would exist.

The proposed erratum makes perfect sense thematically. Cave-Drakes resemble Drakes in every way, rather than Dragons. That said, the point Shapeshifter makes is valid. I typically resist the idea of changes which make some cards less playable than they already are (unless the cards are overplayed or abusive).

This is a great submission and one I feel that will require some deep consideration.

Kjeld
Posts: 134
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:40 pm

Re: Cave-drake

Post by Kjeld » Wed May 02, 2018 5:05 pm

If Cave-drake receives errata to make it a Drake hazard creature type, rather than a Dragon, it might be nice to have a dream card that causes all Drakes to also have the Dragon creature type. That would help address Shapeshifter's concern about the playability of the Dragon-specific enhancers.

User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 2601
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

Re: Cave-drake

Post by Bandobras Took » Wed May 02, 2018 5:28 pm

I don't think there's need for that much concern; Dragon's Desolation, Fever of Unrest, and Frenzy of Madness all increase Dragon playability options.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly.

User avatar
the Jabberwock
Council Chairman
Posts: 801
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:46 am

Re: Cave-drake

Post by the Jabberwock » Wed May 02, 2018 5:55 pm

Bandobras Took wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 5:28 pm
I don't think there's need for that much concern; Dragon's Desolation, Fever of Unrest, and Frenzy of Madness all increase Dragon playability options.
Right, but the more cards required to play a Dragon hazard, the more difficult it is. As an example, if your goal is to employ Memories Stolen in your hazard strategy (with suggested errata) now you must have all of these:

- Memories Stolen in hand
- A unique Dragon creature in hand
- Dragon's Desolation in hand (with company traveling that meets its requirements)
- A Hazard Limit remaining of at least 3

Alternatively (with no errata), you only need:

- Memories Stolen
- Cave Drake (with company traveling that meets its requirements)
- A Hazard Limit remaining of at least 2

It is a big difference. Adding a 3rd required card to the combo as well as an additional Hazard Limit is a huge jump.

User avatar
the Jabberwock
Council Chairman
Posts: 801
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:46 am

Re: Cave-drake

Post by the Jabberwock » Wed May 02, 2018 6:01 pm

Kjeld wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 5:05 pm
If Cave-drake receives errata to make it a Drake hazard creature type, rather than a Dragon, it might be nice to have a dream card that causes all Drakes to also have the Dragon creature type. That would help address Shapeshifter's concern about the playability of the Dragon-specific enhancers.
This seems like a nice suggestion to me.

However, I would caution against altering the standard rules of the game due to considering anything Dream Card specific. There are plenty of players who do not have/use Dream Cards (and may never), and DC are a separate format from standard play. Each rule erratum or clarification should stand on its own merit within the confines of the standard game. :wink:

User avatar
Theo
Posts: 161
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Cave-drake

Post by Theo » Fri May 04, 2018 5:22 am

I think taxonomy is always up for debate, but I want to point out some other parallels:

A butterfly is a matured caterpillar.
A killer whale is a dolphin.
A koala bear is a marsupial.
An electric eel is a fish.
A red panda is a fox.
A star fish is a... not a fish.
A honey badger is in its own subfamily, not a type of badger.

All that said, I'm willing to believe that the first Elven explorers coming upon Cave Drakes might have had other things on their mind than adequately identifying whether they were drakes or dragons, and happened to goof it up, but luckily this was caught by later scholars to be able to accurately type them for our card game.

The game makers had plenty of opportunity with the MELE reprint of Cave Drake to amend it following METD, so the argument of lack of foresight doesn't hold for me.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.

User avatar
the Jabberwock
Council Chairman
Posts: 801
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:46 am

Re: Cave-drake

Post by the Jabberwock » Fri May 04, 2018 4:49 pm

Theo wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 5:22 am
A star fish is a... not a fish.
Lol. :lol:

Theo wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 5:22 am
The game makers had plenty of opportunity with the MELE reprint of Cave Drake to amend it following METD, so the argument of lack of foresight doesn't hold for me.
A fair point. While I am extremely grateful to ICE for the wonderful game they created, I am extremely cautious about assuming their intentions when it comes to issues of logic and planning. :roll:

I just feel that if they knew that drakes were going to be a creature type in the next expansion, they should have named it "Cave-Dragon" instead of "Cave-Drake" if they really wanted it to be a dragon. The "Cave-Drake" name with Dragon creature type just messes with my OCD I suppose.

Even so, I think this a great submission but is also very unclear to me. I can see the argument for both sides.

User avatar
Thorsten the Traveller
Council Member
Posts: 1609
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:44 pm
Location: Tilburg, Netherlands

Re: Cave-drake

Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Mon May 14, 2018 9:32 am

Cave-drake being a Dragon is a peculiar anomaly, or rather anachronism. We had the same discussion in the DC community and did decide to change it in the DC rules to Drake. But the context is different, as playing Dragon-hazards there is easier/more frequent.

As this A) does not really solve a problem, and B) decreases the already scarce use of Dragon hazards, I would not be in favour of this change. Theme is important, but it's not greatly un-thematic to play Dragon's Blood on a Cave-drake.

besides, there's also an upside, making a successful roll for Flatter a Foe or Token of Goodwill against Cave-drake is now easier :-)
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.

User avatar
Mordakai
Posts: 221
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:38 am

Re: Cave-drake

Post by Mordakai » Sun May 27, 2018 3:11 pm

It's interesting, as I thought this problem was solved decades ago with the release of The Lidless Eye... In the Spanish version, Cave Drake was changed to Drake instead of Dragon... I always thought this came from the original English cards, but it seems some translator made his own justice... Behold:
Image

By the way, I know it's not so important, but... shouldn't the Lidless Eye card mention in the text the [-me_wi-] [-me_wi-] thingie?
C'mon, not the Elves of Lindon AGAIN...

User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 2601
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

Re: Cave-drake

Post by Bandobras Took » Mon May 28, 2018 2:49 am

No; mentioning it in the text is not necessary. It's actually redundant, but a helpful reminder nonetheless. That's interesting that the Spanish version already did this, though. :)
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly.

User avatar
the Jabberwock
Council Chairman
Posts: 801
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:46 am

Re: Cave-drake

Post by the Jabberwock » Mon May 28, 2018 3:29 am

Bandobras Took wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 2:49 am
No; mentioning it in the text is not necessary. It's actually redundant, but a helpful reminder nonetheless.
Ya, my guess is that by the Lidless Eye release, they expected people to be more familiar with the rules and not need the symbols regurgitated in the text.
Mordakai wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 3:11 pm
but it seems some translator made his own justice...
That is crazy! Not sure if it was vigilante justice or just a mistake, but either way....quite a shocker. :shock:

Post Reply

Return to “2018 Annual Rules Vote - Submissions”