Old Road

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2018 ARV should be posted here.
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Bandobras Took
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Re: Old Road

Post by Bandobras Took » Tue May 29, 2018 1:56 pm

Quick clarification:

There is a difference between actions that are allowed to be taken in a given phase and actions that, by rule, must be done in a given phase.
TAPPING AND CARD POSITIONS
Normally, during play, each of your cards is placed on the playing surface so that its top is towards your opponent and its bottom is towards you. During play certain cards must be "tapped" when they are used - this is a record keeping mechanism to keep track of card usage. To tap a card, rotate it 90° so that it is turned sideways - to untap a card, rotate it back 90° to its normal position. When one of your characters is wounded, his card is placed with its top towards you (i.e., rotated 180° from an untapped position). All restrictions to tapped characters also apply to wounded characters.
Nothing in the rules for tapping/untapping mention a phase requirement. This is in contrast to both rules on bringing a character into play and "Resource Cards, Non-Event" rules.

Rules for the Untap Phase enable untapping, but the rules for the untap phase are not the rules for untapping any more than the rules for the site phase are the rules for combat just because they mention facing an automatic-attack.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Old Road

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue May 29, 2018 3:01 pm

Bandobras Took wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 1:56 pm
Nothing in the rules for tapping/untapping mention a phase requirement. This is in contrast to both rules on bringing a character into play and "Resource Cards, Non-Event" rules.
A procedure (itself) is one thing, and a time in which the procedure may be taken is other thing.
Lidless Eye, Starter Rules, Playing and Drawing Cards, Storing Cards wrote:During your organization phase, you may store any of your items that are at a Darkhaven site. The controlling character must make a corruption check before an item can be stored. A stored item is placed in your marshalling point pile and counts for marshalling points. Once an item is stored it may not be unstored and brought back into play. The One Ring may never be stored. Some items and resource cards state that they can be stored when at a specific site (e.g., the Seize Prisoners card can be stored at a Darkhaven) other cards may not be stored. Such an item or resource card is still placed in the marshalling point pile and cannot be brought back into play.
If the procedure of storing a cards would be inextricably tied to organization phase then it would not be known how to use Fealty Under Trial.
If the procedure of bringing a character into play would be inextricably tied to organization phase then question is when to play Helm of Her Secrecy?
In organization phase after playing The Great Hunt, or during facing an attack from Traitor?
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Bandobras Took
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Re: Old Road

Post by Bandobras Took » Tue May 29, 2018 4:52 pm

Given that both those cards specifically mention the circumstances under which they are playable, they are playable under the circumstances in which they are playable.

I only wished to clarify that And Forth He Hastened is not a good example because untapping is not limited by rule to a given phase. So the presence/absence of a playability clause makes no difference.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Re: Old Road

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue May 29, 2018 5:08 pm

I do not know whether it proves or disproves anything (besides that a procedure and a time in which the procedure may be taken are separate things).
Lidless Eye, Starter Rules, Influence, Bringing A Faction Into Play" wrote:In order to play a faction card, you must tap one of your characters that is at the site indicated on the faction's card. Then you must make an influence check. Make a roll (2D6), add your character's unused direct influence, and add any appropriate modifications (any applicable standard modifications from the faction card and from any other cards played). All influence check modifier cards must be played before making the roll (2D6).

If the modified result is greater than the value required on the faction card, place the faction in your marshalling point pile (it now counts towards your marshalling point total). Otherwise, you discard the faction card. Once a faction is brought into play, it is not controlled by any specific character and it does not count against general or direct influence.
No word about a site phase.

That factions (items, allies) may be played only in site phase is stated in other chapter.
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Bandobras Took
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Re: Old Road

Post by Bandobras Took » Tue May 29, 2018 6:48 pm

It is stated under the rules for Playing and Drawing Cards (Resource Cards, Non-Event).

It is a case of redundancy, because Factions relate to both Influence (including influence checks) and Playing Non-Event Resource Cards. But Influence is not limited to any phase, even though the play of factions is.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Re: Old Road

Post by Theo » Wed May 30, 2018 3:11 am

Konrad Klar wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 9:20 pm
What differ us (as I understand) is that, in my opinion, resource short-event does not need explicitly state that it may be played in any phase.
I have repeatedly been in agreement that short events can be played in any phase unless explicit otherwise.

Where your interpretation falters is that "may play" only within a short event implies an unrestricted play of another card, and I would rather interpret "may play" as relaxing the requirements to which the event explicitly speaks (equivalent to a temporary addendum on the existing rules) regardless of the event type. With this interpretation, Old Road can be played any time during a resource turn for a potential effect, the short event would resolve, presumably the other requirements for play would still not be met, and the card would be wasted. This is not preventing play.

Further, it is my belief that if they meant "may play" to mean "play" on short events, they would have just written "play."

For Thorsten, how about MELE top of page 40 (not the Events section):
MELE p40 wrote:Except for resource long-events, you may play resource cards anytime during your own turn unless specifically prohibited by the rules or the cards themselves.
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Konrad Klar
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Re: Old Road

Post by Konrad Klar » Wed May 30, 2018 9:12 am

@ Theo:
If a resource short-event would say "this turn", or "until end of turn" then I would agree that the resource short-event would allows for something (extends normal possibilities) outside of time of its execution.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Old Road

Post by CDavis7M » Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:36 pm

All good discussion here. Pretty much confirms my belief that the original card text and rules documents are too vague and inconsistent to point to specific term usage to determine any "correct" outcome. There seems to be the problem of only viewing the trees and not the forest.

Regardless, the vote suggests to add text to the card requiring an untapped character. I wonder how else one would bring a faction into play without being untapped unless the card text allowed it, but then I've revealed my position.

My follow up question on the errata: Does any site need to be tapped using Old Road? Does the site listed on the faction card itself need to be tapped, and then discarded, in order to play the faction? Or is the Haven't itself tapped, and then not discarded? Or maybe no site is tapped due since each card has plenty of space on it to write all the rules required (I'm kidding)? If the errata is going out of it's way to define already-in-place requirements, then why is the tapping of the site not addressed?

It seems to me that the Haven is tapped since the faction is played there. (As if the nearby Faction was marshelled at the Haven itself, the faction having arrived there by some Old Road)

Example: A Boromir at Edhellond uses Old Road to play the Knights of Doll Amaroth faction. The site Dol Amaroth is brought into "meta-play" as part of the verification required by Old Road and then is required to the site deck. Then Boromir taps to play the faction as normal. Let's say the roll is successful. Then the site (Edhellond) that the character is at taps, as normal. Now that Edhellond is tapped, a second Old Road can not be played the following turn (because playing a faction requires an untapped site). However, when Boromir travels to Pelagir, Edhellond returns to the site deck,as it is a Haven. Boromir can then return to Edhellond the following turn and play Men of Lamedon using Old Road.

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Re: Old Road

Post by Theo » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:41 am

CDavis7M wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:36 pm
My follow up question on the errata: Does any site need to be tapped using Old Road? Does the site listed on the faction card itself need to be tapped, and then discarded, in order to play the faction? Or is the Haven't itself tapped, and then not discarded? Or maybe no site is tapped due since each card has plenty of space on it to write all the rules required (I'm kidding)? If the errata is going out of it's way to define already-in-place requirements, then why is the tapping of the site not addressed?
CoE clarifications addressed this earlier:
CoE weekly Rulings/Clarifications 11 wrote: 3. I can't find anything that tells me I can't use Old Road in the org phase, or even that it results in the Haven or the remote site tapping.
*** CRF Site Phase/General: "Items, factions and allies must be played during the site phase."
*** CRF Site Phase/General: "The site taps upon successful play of the resource that would tap it."
[...]
18. What are the site tapping rules with regards to Hour of Need and Old Road?
*** In Van Norton's old digests, 581 and 582, he says that both require an untapped site and will tap the site at which they are played."
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CDavis7M
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Re: Old Road

Post by CDavis7M » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:49 am

Cheers.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Old Road

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:21 am

With the errata proposed by me, Old Road works as synonymous of an influence attempt.
Like in case of an influence attempt, influencing character taps at declaration.
Like original Old Road it does not require (by its text) untapped Haven, or untapped site where faction can be played.

I think that Old Road and Hour of Need share the same scheme as scheme of Roäc the Raven.
An influence attempt is performed by entity at a site, but the influence attempt is not performed at the site.
(please note the part of CRF entry for Roäc the Raven is not errata)
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Re: Old Road

Post by CDavis7M » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:57 pm

So, the Haven would not be tapped?

Was this errata to Old Road supposed to include further errata to be consistent with the errata (not labeled as such) to Roac that enables Roac to be at a tapped site for the influencing, and then not need to tap any other site?

Rulings and errata can be confused. Presumably a "ruling" would clarity grammar issues or select a particular definition/interpretation of a word or phrase while "errata" would add or remove conditions and effects in order to better reflect the designers intention.

Roac's CRF with my notes in parentheses.

Code: Select all

Röac the Raven

Card Erratum: Replace "no modifications to the influence check are required." with "treat this influence check as if it was made by a diplomat."

His special ability may only be used during the site phase. (A reminder of the standard rules for influencing factions, which is not inconsistent with any of the Roac card text or errata)

He can make the attempt by himself. (A reminder of the standard rules for influencing factions, which is not inconsistent with any of the Roac card text or errata)

Using this ally to make an influence attempt does not tap a site, and may be done if his company is at a tapped site. (This statement is not a reminder. It goes against the standard rules requiring untapped site and tapping. This is errata disguised as CRF)

  

And thanks again for the replies. I've been working on a Wizard deck with the Will of Sauron and Old Road.



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Re: Old Road

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:58 pm

CDavis7M wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:57 pm
Was this errata to Old Road supposed to include further errata to be consistent with the errata (not labeled as such) to Roac that enables Roac to be at a tapped site for the influencing, and then not need to tap any other site?
No. The question of tapping (or being untapped at declaration) of site is separate.
CDavis7M wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:57 pm
So, the Haven would not be tapped?
In my opinion: Haven should not be tapped after successful attempt made using Old Road.
CDavis7M wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:57 pm
(This statement is not a reminder. It goes against the standard rules requiring untapped site and tapping. This is errata disguised as CRF)
That standard rules apply to standard situation, where attempt is made by character being at a site and is made at the site.
My understanding of what Roäc the Raven does is that he is entity being at some site but he makes attempt not at the site.
CDavis7M wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:57 pm
Rulings and errata can be confused. Presumably a "ruling" would clarity grammar issues or select a particular definition/interpretation of a word or phrase while "errata" would add or remove conditions and effects in order to better reflect the designers intention.
Things look to be worse for me.
In my opinion:
A ruling should be an inference concluded from existing rules and/or text of card. Or a ruling should regulate a things not defined by rules (only as temporary solution, when a lack of proper rule does not allow a game to be proceeded in some situation).
This means that a ruling should not be specific to a card (as opposed to errata), and that a ruling should not contradict with a rules.
CRF, Errata (Cards), Something Has Slipped wrote:The -2 applies for each character that is wounded. Wounding an ally triggers this
card.
You cannot "become wounded" if you are already wounded before the strike.
CRF, Errata (Cards), So You've Come Back wrote:If two companies join, and both companies have a So You've Come Back played on
them, the hazard player chooses which one to discard. A character in a company with
just allies is by himself for the purposes of this card.
are examples of not meeting that expectation.

All underlines mine.
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