Old Road

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2018 ARV should be posted here.
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Konrad Klar
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Old Road

Post by Konrad Klar » Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:07 am

Old Road wrote:Allows a character at a Haven [-me_fd-] to attempt to bring a faction into play. The length of the site path from this Haven to the site at which the faction can be played must be two or less (this must be verified by an available site card). The influence check for this attempt is modified by -1 and is not modified by the influencing character's direct influence.
The card may be played in any phase, therefore is too powerful.

I propose the following erratum:

Playable on a character at a Haven [-me_fd-] during site phase. The a character makes attempt to bring a faction into play (reveal the faction with the card). The length of the site path from this Haven to the site at which the faction can be played must be two or less (this must be verified by an available site card). The influence check for this attempt is modified by -1 and is not modified by the influencing character's direct influence.

(because an influence attempt may be modified by other actions declared in response, the attempt should be declared [faction card revealed] along with declaration of Old Road)
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Mordakai
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Re: Old Road

Post by Mordakai » Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:31 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:07 am
The card may be played in any phase, therefore is too powerful.
Too powerful? Really? REALLY?

As fas as I know, Old Road cannot be played outside site phase to bring a faction into play, the reason being factions can only be brought into play on the site phase (with permission of Hour of Need, overrriding rulings).

However, even if the possibility of playing it at any time in the player's turn, it still seems to me very underpowered in respect to A Chance Meeting / We Have Come to Kill, wich is accepted to be played at any time, only because ICE told it (with a stupid ruling that could be aplicable to Old Road, in my opinion).

I don't want to start the argue about this again, just saying that, as far as I know, Old Road cannot be played outside site phase to bring a faction into play... Am I wrong?
C'mon, not the Elves of Lindon AGAIN...

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Bandobras Took
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Re: Old Road

Post by Bandobras Took » Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:06 am

Currently, rulings are that Old Road can't be played any time. Such a change as suggested here would make more consistent sense.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly.

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Re: Old Road

Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Mon May 14, 2018 10:07 am

Currently, rulings are that Old Road can't be played any time.
Can you quote this ruling and/or the reasoning leading to this conclusion?
If so, I do not see the reason to alter the card, even if it's more clear/consistent.
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Re: Old Road

Post by Konrad Klar » Mon May 14, 2018 12:28 pm

If some ruling is de facto an errata (for a card/rule), it is a good reason to make an errata (to the card/rule).
Leaving such state as is retains the ruling invalid.

(if a consistency is a value at all)
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Re: Old Road

Post by Bandobras Took » Mon May 14, 2018 1:45 pm

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:07 am
Currently, rulings are that Old Road can't be played any time.
Can you quote this ruling and/or the reasoning leading to this conclusion?
If so, I do not see the reason to alter the card, even if it's more clear/consistent.
CoE 74. As long as the meccg forums are down, I can't give the reasoning with 100% certainty, but the responses I received in connection with other debates suggest that the coin came down on "the card must explicitly override the rules" rather than "short events are playable at any time."
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly.

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Re: Old Road

Post by Konrad Klar » Mon May 14, 2018 2:04 pm

I would say that CoE 74 explicitly overrides " Resource short-events and permanent-events can be played at any time during your turn as limited by specific card text.". :)
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Re: Old Road

Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Thu May 17, 2018 9:02 am

What about Hour of Need then? It does not mention it can be played at any time, yet it was ruled (or so I deduce) that you can play it during the organization phase. Is balance is the only reason to give it a different approach?
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Re: Old Road

Post by Konrad Klar » Thu May 17, 2018 10:25 am

Like in case of A Malady without Healing. Intuition hints that the card should by able to be played on an opponent's character. Intuition but not its text.
And the card was/is often so played, in contradiction to its text. Text makes the card obviously less powerful currently.

Reportedly there is a ruling CoE 74 that restrict playability of Old Road. I think that it is invalid, but it expresses a players opinion/intuition that the card should be played only in site phase. I'm suspecting that like in case of Ringlore from Limited Edition of METW the restriction "Playable only during the site phase." has been omitted by mistake.
Of course both Ringlore and Old Road if playable in any phase would be more powerful, but besided they would not cause any technical problems (I mean: they would not lead to any undefined situation).

Text of Hour of Need mentions that it is playable in organization phase. It explicitly expresses the will of creators to use the card in phase in which a faction otherwise cannot be played. It is much less likely that explicit text has been used by mistake. It is much more likely that lacking text - restriction (Old Road) or extension (A Malady without Healing) - has been omitted by mistake.
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Theo
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Re: Old Road

Post by Theo » Thu May 17, 2018 8:57 pm

I got tired of not seeing the text.
CoE 74 wrote:About old road, since it's a short event, can it be played at any time
during your turn if your are at a haven ?

*** No. It must be played during your site phase.
However, I'm not much for trusting the "clarifications" of this Netrep, as they made obvious errors elsewhere.
CoE 74 wrote:Also, if my Fallen Wizard is eliminated (such as by a Tidings of Bold
Spies played on the auto-attack at the (Hero) Ruined Signal Tower), can
I still play stage resource cards specific to that FW? How about stage
resource cards that require one of several FW's (my own dead one among
them)?

*** You may still play stage resources specific to that fallen-wizard,
and stage resources specific to many fallen-wizards after your
fallen-wizard dies.
CRF wrote:If your Fallen-wizard dies, you may not play cards specific to that Fallen-wizard, and you do not count as that Fallen-wizard for card effects such as Gatherer of Loyalties.
etc.

But I still support the explicit restriction of Old Road. I like the consistency given to the game that comes from cards that allow play of other cards being generally interpreted as only extending playability as made explicit in the text, and I imagine good reason for the creators not re-specifying every detail when wanting to slightly extend some playability. Thus I imagine Old Road was intended to extend faction playing to allow from a Haven but is site-phase only because factions can normally be played only during the site phase. Parallels A Chance Meeting, We Have Come to Kill, not to permeate that discussion here. ;)
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Konrad Klar
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Re: Old Road

Post by Konrad Klar » Fri May 18, 2018 10:09 am

@Theo:
In your post you do not take into account a difference between "playability of a faction" and "when/where/how a faction may be played".
Old Road and Hour of Need do not affect a playability of faction.
Given faction is considered playable at given site, even if under current conditions (company is at other site, tapped site, currently is phase other than site phase, player does not have the faction card in hand etc.) the faction cannot be played.
Cards like Trouble on All Borders rely on this difference.

If not phrases like "Playable during site phase", Bounty of the Hoard, Hoard Well Searched, Here, There, or Yonder could be played in any phase of player's turn and would allow to play item or ally outside a site phase.
Per rule "Resource short-events and permanent-events can be played at any time during your turn as limited by specific card text.".
Either the rule is treated seriously or not.
Theo wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 8:57 pm
and I imagine good reason for the creators not re-specifying every detail when wanting to slightly extend some playability.
And I imagine bad reason for the creators not specifying every detail when wanting to restrict some playability (of event, not faction).
They had something in their mind and it appeared to them as something obvious, to the extent they forgot to mention it and not realize that general rule (created by them) says otherwise.
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Khamul the Easterling
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Re: Old Road

Post by Khamul the Easterling » Sat May 19, 2018 1:37 pm

AFAIK Old road may only be played if the Haven is untapped (right?)
I propose to make that explicit in the oncoming erratum:
"Playable on a character on an untapped Haven ..."

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Re: Old Road

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat May 19, 2018 2:12 pm

I do not think that the influence attempt takes a place anywhere.
Se also Roäc the Raven (CRF entry for it).
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Theo
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Re: Old Road

Post by Theo » Sat May 19, 2018 4:17 pm

Khamul the Easterling wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 1:37 pm
AFAIK Old road may only be played if the Haven is untapped (right?)
I propose to make that explicit in the oncoming erratum:
"Playable on a character on an untapped Haven ..."
Well, with the "not unless it explicitly says that it is following the rules in the rulebook" interpretation---necessary to permit play outside of the site phase---then it also doesn't require an untapped site.

But yes, I'd argue that it does need an untapped Haven. At the very least, the clarification from Van is:
Van on Old Road wrote:If successful taps the character's site, not the site of the faction being played.
which suggests that indeed a check is being made at the site.
Konrad Klar wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 10:09 am
In your post you do not take into account a difference between "playability of a faction" and "when/where/how a faction may be played".
Sorry for vagueness of language. I'll try to be clear about "where a faction states that it can be played" and "what is required to play a faction".

For a parallel example, Bounty of the Hoard, Hoard Well Searched does not specify that any character needs to tap to play the newly-allowed card. Here, There, or Yonder does. For those arguing that Old Road allows the faction to be played during any phase, or Chance Meeting/WHCtK to be played during any phase, wouldn't the same logic mean that Bounty of the Hoard and Hoard Well Searched lets the item be played without tapping a character?

While I can see how it could be a valid way to interpret the rules, I am of the opinion that this would not be healthy for the game, and that the rules may just as consistently be interpreted as these cards only modifying that aspect of "what is required to play the card" which is made explicitly in their text. As specified:
MELE p42 wrote:Certain resource cards may only be played if specific required conditions exist. A faction card, ally card, or item card must be played during your site phase and requires an untapped character and an untapped site.
Note the plural (underline mine). Bounty of the Hoard changes the requirement for an untapped site explicitly, but that doesn't mean it changes the requirement for an untapped character. These are plural conditions, each needing to be separately overruled explicitly by card text, not one complex "untapped-character-and-an-untapped-site" mega-condition to be overruled by card text all at once.

Now, with a similar scrutiny for factions in particular:
MELE p42 wrote:If one of your characters is at the site specified on a faction card, he may tap during the site phase to attempt an influence check in order to play the faction card.
I see the set of required conditions as:
  1. untapped character (from above)
  2. untapped site (from above)
  3. site specified on the faction card -- "where a faction states that it can be played"
  4. site phase (from both above and faction specific!)
  5. character attempting check must tap
I see how Old Road changes (c), but none of the others. Definitely not (d).

---
You might be thinking, "Wait! Here, There, or Yonder requires the character to tap before the play of the ally and doesn't explicitly allow the character to play the ally from a tapped state." But the key to Here, There, or Yonder is that "An ally may be played and placed under the character’s control..." and it is this explicit placement by Here, There, or Yonder that circumvents the requirement that the character tap to gain the ally.
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Re: Old Road

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat May 19, 2018 5:42 pm

Yes.
Here, There, or Yonder taps character, and (if roll is high enough and appropriate ally is in player's hand) the ally is played under control of the character.
The character does not play the ally and untapped site is tapped in result of the event, not in result of playing ally at the site.*

Bounty of the Hoard allows to play major, or minor item at appropriate site.
Hoard Well Searched allows to play major, or minor item.

If to omit a standard procedure of playing an item then the item would be played on table.
But nothing in texts of Bounty of the Hoard, Hoard Well Searched allow to omit the procedure.
The procedure itself is phase-agnostic (there is nothing particular in site phase that would allow a character to tap and take played item under its control). But both cards are limited by their texts to be played only in site phase.

"The length of the site path from this Haven to the site at which the faction can be played must be two or less (this must be verified by an available site card)."
If to assume that Old Road allows to play a faction at [-me_ha-], then the text does not make a sense. Because now a some faction may be played at [-me_ha-] it would turn out that "The length of the site path from this Haven to the site at which the faction can be played**" is always zero. This effectively would allow to make attempt to bring any faction into play.

So no. The faction cannot be considered to be played at this [-me_ha-].
Theo wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 4:17 pm
Certain resource cards may only be played if specific required conditions exist.
Because not restricted by its text a resource short-event may be played in any phase of its player turn, any action that happens in its result may happen in phase in which the event is played.

I would not expect from most resource short-events, and resource permanent-events a containing of phrase "playable in any phase". This would be absurd redundancy.
Some of them are limited to site phase even if they allow to play resource normally playable only in site phase.

Some words about A Chance Meeting, We Have Come to Kill.
Unlike factions, items, allies, that may be played only in site phase, factions, playing a characters is not limited by rules to organization phase.
Rather characters may be played in organization phase without need to use other effects.
The difference is theoretical. In practice an event, or effect that is not limited to given phase and that has result that faction, item, ally, character is immediately played, may be used in any phase of its player turn.

*) this means that Here, There, or Yonder allows to play minion ally under control a character at hero [-me_rl-].
**) "can normally be played" instead "can be played" would leave some room for interpretation. It may be target of some errata, but not the one proposed by me.
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