We Have Come to Kill & Ringwraith Followers

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the Jabberwock
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We Have Come to Kill & Ringwraith Followers

Post by the Jabberwock » Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:29 am

In ICE digest # 585, the following question was asked and answered:
3.) We have come to kill

May I use this card to bring my ringwraith in play ? And what will be the amount of his mind ? May I use ACM at any time during my turn (during movement hazard phase to assign the new character a strike; will this increase the number of hazards) ? May I play a character (during organisaton phase) at any shadow-, borderhold and ruin & lairs also if the site is not in play ?

No, We have Come to Kill can't be used to bring in a Ringwraith. The same restriction applies that you must be at the site.
As also mentioned in the editorial comments of the URD, this question was asking if WHCTK can bring in your Ringwraith Avatar (just as the previous question asked by the same person was whether or not A Chance Meeting could bring in your Wizard).

As such, it is unclear whether or not WHCTK can be used to bring in a Ringwraith follower.

As I believe it provides for more interesting game play and is consistent with the current interpretation that ACM/WHCTK strictly prohibits bringing in one's Avatar, but not any other characters, I propose the following clarification be issued for this card:
We Have Come to Kill -

May be used to bring in a Ringwraith follower. All Ringwraith follower restrictions must still be observed, except for the site and phase restrictions.

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Re: We Have Come to Kill & Ringwraith Followers

Post by Theo » Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:58 am

In my opinion, Ringwraith followers may not be brought into play under either direct or general influence since they have no mind, so I would argue that this would be a change, not a clarification.

Underline mine:
MELE p18 wrote:INFLUENCING (CONTROLLING) A CHARACTER -- Direct Influence
Some characters have a direct influence attribute of one or more. If such a character's direct influence is greater than or equal to another one of your character's mind attribute, he may take control of that other character, who then becomes a follower of the controlling character.
(without a mind attribute, no direct influence)
MELE p58 wrote:A Ringwraith follower must always be under the control of your Ringwraith... Your Ringwraith must use 1 point of direct influence to control each Ringwraith follower.
(Ringwraith followers follow an alternative form of control, which uses the Avatar's direct influence but is not defined to be a type of Direct Influence, and also not general influence.)
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Re: We Have Come to Kill & Ringwraith Followers

Post by the Jabberwock » Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:31 am

I presented this as a clarification rather than an erratum because there is no clear rule to change or correct. This is a gray area. I have asked several experienced players their opinion on this matter and received essentially the same reply from all of them - "Sure, why not?"

MELE p58 wrote:A Ringwraith follower must always be under the control of your Ringwraith... Your Ringwraith must use 1 point of direct influence to control each Ringwraith follower.
ICE was anything but precise with every single rule they issued and I would argue that this is a matter of semantics. I do believe the rules are saying here that Ringwraith followers are brought into play using Direct Influence, even though it doesn't explicitly use that term. It does say "under the control" and "must use 1 point of direct influence to control"..... which I think is enough to support this idea.

MELE p18 wrote:INFLUENCING (CONTROLLING) A CHARACTER -- Direct Influence
Some characters have a direct influence attribute of one or more. If such a character's direct influence is greater than or equal to another one of your character's mind attribute, he may take control of that other character, who then becomes a follower of the controlling character.
They are called Ringwraith Followers in the rules, which further supports the idea that they are like other followers and should be treated in a similar manner except where explicitly stated otherwise in the rules.

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Re: We Have Come to Kill & Ringwraith Followers

Post by Theo » Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:32 am

Yup, fair enough! Just wanted to state my differing opinion.
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Re: We Have Come to Kill & Ringwraith Followers

Post by Jose-san » Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:33 pm

I would add another clarification to WHCtK:

Can not be used to bring into play a character in a site that isn't already in play.

As discussed here:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2538

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Re: We Have Come to Kill & Ringwraith Followers

Post by Theo » Fri May 04, 2018 4:51 am

I don't think that's what the thread is about.

WHCtK can't be used to bring a character into play during the site phase at a site with no party.

Perfectly allowed to bring a character into play at a new site at other times, just can't create an additional company site phase in the midst of another company's site phase.
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Re: We Have Come to Kill & Ringwraith Followers

Post by dirhaval » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:18 pm

I would like that if Ringwraith followers can be used with WHCTK, then such followers cannot be played when the avatar is in Fell Rider mode via the event only, during the site phase.

Creature of the Older World ally is a different. I think the follower can be played, but starter movement is not allowed with a follower. Dwar Unleashed I think can allow region movement in no mode, but if Dwar Unleashed requires a mode, then the follower nullifies the ally's fell rider status and thus no movement.

If WHCTK is voted for Ringwraith followers, then the player can end his turn with site phase with the ally and a new follower.

I can see more use of Heralded Lord and the three Ringwraiths with 9 DI in that mode. A "yes" will encourage more roaming Ringwraiths.

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Re: We Have Come to Kill & Ringwraith Followers

Post by Theo » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:22 am

(Underline mine)
Van wrote:We Have Come to Kill may be used to bring in agents, but not Ringwraiths or Fallen-wizards.
"Original ICE entry: as above, minus 'or Fallen-wizards'"

I would imagine Ringwraith followers count as Ringwraiths.

Perhaps this should have been a status quo item.
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Re: We Have Come to Kill & Ringwraith Followers

Post by Bandobras Took » Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:24 pm

Theo wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:22 am
I would imagine Ringwraith followers count as Ringwraiths.

Perhaps this should have been a status quo item.
Only if your imagination is reality. :)

The question is whether Van meant "your Ringwraith" or "all characters with the Ringwraith race." ICE could be rather imprecise with terminology, at times. The reason your Ringwraith is disallowed is because your Ringwraith is not under direct influence of general influence. The same can't be said for RW Followers. (Your RW uses 1 point of influence to control each RW follower.)
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

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Re: We Have Come to Kill & Ringwraith Followers

Post by the Jabberwock » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:52 pm

Theo wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:22 am
Perhaps this should have been a status quo item.
Yes, as Bandobras points out above, this is not crystal clear as it is unknown what Van really meant. There are many examples of ICE saying one thing when they surely meant to say something slightly different. I attempted to properly explain this issue and the nature of the confusion in the voting topic. Perhaps I should have gone into more depth.

In any event, this ballot item was never given serious consideration as a Status Quo item by the ROC, because there is room for confusion. Avatars are the only type of characters which are expressly forbidden from use with ACM/WHCTK, so it is quite reasonable to question whether or not Van meant to say "your" Ringwraith" instead of "a Ringwraith."

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Re: We Have Come to Kill & Ringwraith Followers

Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:06 pm

WHCtK obviously (somehow !?) checks the character you intend to play, and what rules it's subject to, even in terms of company composition, or one could use it to play a Dwarf with a company of Orcs.
So if WHCtK checks all other boxes for the RW, and if we assume Van was not precise in his answer to the question, then a RW follower might be played with WHCtK.

Another thing though, if you have 1 RW with 1 mode ally, and you play another RW with WHCtK, then your RW's company is not in a mode. They can normally only move to a Darkhaven, but that is subject to the play of cards. One could keep Forched Marching without being in a mode. This situation is already possible by playing the RW follower at his home site, and apparently Uvatha can also join anywhere. Still I do not like to extend the options for such a situation, it undermines the need for mode cards.
nb. It was ruled that to use Dwar Unleashed the company must be in a mode! Moving to a non-Darkhaven site without being in a mode was considered a no-no.

And another thing, sideways related, if my RW does not have any free DI (e.g. Tidings of Doubt and Danger) but does have a Black Horse (and no other RW follower), can WHCtK be used to bring in a RW follower? Or same scenario but your RW is The Witch-king (without Black Horse), can WHCtK then be used?
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Re: We Have Come to Kill & Ringwraith Followers

Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:33 pm

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:06 pm
nb. It was ruled that to use Dwar Unleashed the company must be in a mode! Moving to a non-Darkhaven site without being in a mode was considered a no-no.
I do not think that a using of Dwar Unleashed requires a being in a mode. After all Dwar's own company may move to Darkhaven using a region movement.
CRF, Rulings by Term wrote:If an ally giving a mode is removed from play during the movement/hazard phase, the
Ringwraith immediately stops being in that mode, but continues to move to his new
site.
It is well known issue that ICE sometimes says about "moving" when it means attempting to move, and sometimes when it means actual movement process. The rule indicates that "may move to a non-Darkhaven site" in texts of mode cards, and " in order to move from a Darkhaven to a non-Darkhaven site, a Ringwraith must have a special resource card" refer to an attempt to move, not to a movement process.
Thorsten the Traveller wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:06 pm
One could keep Forched Marching without being in a mode.
Right, but it does not mean that a company of Ringwraith not being in mode may make attempt to move to a non-Darkhaven site.
Thorsten the Traveller wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:06 pm
And another thing, sideways related, if my RW does not have any free DI (e.g. Tidings of Doubt and Danger) but does have a Black Horse (and no other RW follower), can WHCtK be used to bring in a RW follower? Or same scenario but your RW is The Witch-king (without Black Horse), can WHCtK then be used?
No and no.
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Re: We Have Come to Kill & Ringwraith Followers

Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:58 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:33 pm
Thorsten the Traveller wrote: ↑
21 Jun 2018, 14:06
And another thing, sideways related, if my RW does not have any free DI (e.g. Tidings of Doubt and Danger) but does have a Black Horse (and no other RW follower), can WHCtK be used to bring in a RW follower? Or same scenario but your RW is The Witch-king (without Black Horse), can WHCtK then be used?

No and no.
I'm sorry. I think that I made an error. Such RW follower is controlled by DI of Ringwraith even if he does not consume his DI.
Similarly, in company with An Unexpected Party, a Dwarves with mind 2 or less are under control of DI or GI even if they do not consume DI or GI.

So answer is "Yes and yes".
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Re: We Have Come to Kill & Ringwraith Followers

Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:05 pm

CRF writes: Dwar Unleashed. Dwar must already be in a mode to use this card.
this is incorrect?

So you're saying the RW company that's not in a mode may, according to you, keep moving, but not start moving? (or as you say attempt to move?).
Hmm, this interpretation is new, to my knowledge (in the context of RW movement rules).

nb. the ally removal example does not seem fully aplicable, because if the company would not be able to move, in the strict interpretation, where would they be, back at the site of origin as if they'd never moved? They started moving, hence they are moving. Anyway, a CRF entry is not an ICE original rule, so we cannot deduce from it any conflicting terminology.


All in all there are reasons for me to be against WHCtK being used on RW followers.
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Re: We Have Come to Kill & Ringwraith Followers

Post by Bandobras Took » Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:43 pm

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:05 pm
CRF writes: Dwar Unleashed. Dwar must already be in a mode to use this card.
this is incorrect?
It may be incomplete. A Ringwraith must be in a mode to move to a non-Darkhaven site. I believe they meant that Dwar Unleashed does not, of itself, circumvent/fulfill the requirement.
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