Returned Beyond All Hope

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2018 ARV should be posted here.
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Konrad Klar
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Returned Beyond All Hope

Post by Konrad Klar » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:59 am

Make the card "Short-Event or Permanent-Event" and change its text accordingly.

As a short-event bring one hazard creature of the following type from your discard pile to your hand: Maia, Elf, Dwarf, or Dúnedain.
Alternatively, as a short-event bring a Maia permanent-event from active play to your hand.
Alternatively, as a permanent-event make a roll (draw a #)-if the result is greater than 8, bring an eliminated Elf or Maia hazard creature to its owner's discard pile and place this card in your opponent's marshalling point pile (do not discard it).
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Jose-san
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Re: Returned Beyond All Hope

Post by Jose-san » Sun May 06, 2018 7:19 am

What happens to the card if the roll is 8 or less? Can it be played if there's no Elf/Maia hazard creature eliminated?

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Returned Beyond All Hope

Post by Konrad Klar » Sun May 06, 2018 9:18 am

Jose-san wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 7:19 am
What happens to the card if the roll is 8 or less?
Nothing. And this requires a correction. Thanks for noticing it.
Jose-san wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 7:19 am
Can it be played if there's no Elf/Maia hazard creature eliminated?
Yes.

Proposed change is now:

As a short-event bring one hazard creature of the following type from your discard pile to your hand: Maia, Elf, Dwarf, or Dúnedain.
Alternatively, as a short-event bring a Maia permanent-event from active play to your hand.
Alternatively, as a permanent-event make a roll (draw a #)-if the result is greater than 8, bring an eliminated Elf or Maia hazard creature to its owner's discard pile and place this card in your opponent's marshalling point pile. If the result is less than 9, discard this card.
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Re: Returned Beyond All Hope

Post by Jose-san » Sun May 06, 2018 10:48 am

What about this wording?

As a short-event bring one hazard creature of the following type from your discard pile to your hand: Maia, Elf, Dwarf, or Dúnedain.
Alternatively, as a short-event bring a Maia permanent-event from active play to your hand.
Alternatively, as a permanent-event make a roll (draw a #)-if the result is greater than 8, bring an eliminated Elf or Maia hazard creature to its owner's discard pile and place this card in your opponent's marshalling point pile, otherwise, discard this card.


I think there's a problem if the roll is >8, but there is no eliminated Elf/Maia creature.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Returned Beyond All Hope

Post by Konrad Klar » Sun May 06, 2018 11:55 am

If it is actually problem. Player may have a hope that at resolution there will be eliminated Elf/Maia creature, but it may be beyond hope.
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Konrad Klar
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Re: Returned Beyond All Hope

Post by Konrad Klar » Sun May 06, 2018 12:06 pm

OK. Version proposed by you is closer to original version.
Accepted.
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Theo
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Re: Returned Beyond All Hope

Post by Theo » Sun May 06, 2018 7:09 pm

I think I had a post about why the need to make the third option a permanent-event? If placed in the MP pile it doesn't matter what type of event it is. And as a short event, the "otherwise discard" is inherent.

I guess I don't understand the motive for this proposed change. Is it to clarify "place this card in your opponent's MP pile for 2 MP instead of discarding"?
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.

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Re: Returned Beyond All Hope

Post by Konrad Klar » Sun May 06, 2018 7:49 pm

And answer was something like: it is cosmetic. Actually "(do not discard it)" makes the trick.

Because normally permanent-events persist in play and short-event do not.
Of course a trick may change almost anything. There are a cards played tapped that do not untap in untap phase (To the Uttermost Foundations), there are possible a long-events that are not discarded in an opponent's long-event phase etc.

Answer is now: to replace a trick where it is not necessary with straight solution.
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Re: Returned Beyond All Hope

Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Mon May 14, 2018 9:19 am

Answer is now: to replace a trick where it is not necessary with straight solution.
I don't think the card has ever created a problem in its interpretation, and there is also no real rules-issue involved, rather it is not elegant.

But changing all non-elegant stuff also has its downsides, so for me this is not worth it.
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Re: Returned Beyond All Hope

Post by Shapeshifter » Mon May 21, 2018 9:46 am

If played as a permanent event when does the hazard player have to make the roll?

a) Immediately after RBAH is played as a permanent event.
b) Any time after RBAH has been played as a permanent event during any of opponent's m/h-phases if the hazard player chooses to do so.

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Re: Returned Beyond All Hope

Post by Konrad Klar » Mon May 21, 2018 10:49 am

Immediately when the card resolves. Once.
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