Virtual Card Discussion and Playtesting

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Nerdmeetsyou
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Post by Nerdmeetsyou » Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:24 pm

I don't like the ability to raise it further...
(it's very unusual for the game how it is represented...)
and why should you become unbelievable strong over time, just because of the ent draughts???
okay, the hobbits grew a little bit... but thats a little bit much what it does now...

If you realy want to include the further raising, why not do it the following:
At end of your turn, search your play deck for an ent drought and put it on the character controling ent drought.

????

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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:51 am

BoderHamster wrote:What is the thematical theme behind Maronnon???
what is intended with it??
Precisely what is described in the books as the worst danger -- someone of great power using the Ring to cast down Sauron entirely.
BoderHamster wrote:And let me ask something else...
isn't ent drought a little bit overpowered?
and i even think it's not even very flavourful....
How is it overpowered?

I like the idea of being able to raise a character's mind to prevent Pilfering, but that eats into influence in a hurry -- seems like a fair trade to me.

Also, it can be very inconvenient to have to put the top card of your discard pile on Ent-Draughts. Anything Unique that you were planning to recycle comes to mind.

Leon
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Post by Leon » Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:45 pm

The usual solution for cards that half multiple stages or so is that it is tapped, inverted etc. Can this be done for Ent-Drought as well? something like:

Playable at Wellinghall (even if Wellinghall is
tapped). Cancels any stage resources on bearer. This card may be rotated 90 degrees at a time up to 540 degrees for the following effect each time it is rotated. A non-Wizard bearer receives +1 mind, +1 prowess (maximum 8), and +1 direct influence permanently and if he was wounded, he is now healed.

for a similar case the following quote.
Legendary Hoard
TYPE: Resource
RARITY: R2
CLASS: Permanent-event
MP: 0
MIND: 0
INFLUENCE: 0
PROWESS: 0
BODY: 0
CORRUPT: 0
ARTIST: Donato Glancola
RANDOM#: 8
Playable on an at home Dragon manifestation. Target Dragon's automatic-attack cannot be cancelled. Rotate this card 90 each time a manifestation of target Dragon is played. If the site receiving the Dragon's automatic-attack is untapped, a number of items played there do not tap the site: not rotated: 1 item; rotated once: 2 items; rotated twice or more: 3 items. If target Dragon is required to be discarded or removed from play, invert Dragon on table until this card is discarded. Discard this card when any item is played at target Dragon's lair that tap the site. Cannot be duplicated on a given Dragon.

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Nerdmeetsyou
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Post by Nerdmeetsyou » Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:40 pm

I like leons version much better... especialy because of the limit of 3 times raising and healing (which i think is still very good playable...)
it's an iteam that's played in additonal to something in wellinghal which heals up to three characters... in trading for general influence...

I especialy didn't like the unlimted raising (because that would be quiet unflavourful) and that it is represented by stacking cards on characters...
(the hobbits didn't become superman by these drinks, they just grew a little bit!!!!!!)

I love the new version and i think that's how it should be inluded as a V card...!!!

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:28 pm

Leon's version would allow 6 times (540 / 90).

Anyway, I guess the main thing to take note is how many turns do you think End Draughts will be usable. Most games take between 3 and 7 turns to complete. For argument's sake let's say you get Ent Draughts in play on turn 4. That's leaves on average around 3 turns to make use of Ent Draughts, since normally it can only be tapped once per turn. With Leon's version it seems it could be rotated right through to 540 on the first turn...

I've not actually tried out this card yet, so I'm not fully sure on its implications. Maybe it would be better if the card(s) selected to be placed underneath Ent-Draughts actually came from the play deck? That would mean there's a greater risk associated with using the item.

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Nerdmeetsyou
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Post by Nerdmeetsyou » Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:41 pm

maybe we must find the correct wording for the new version...
and only allow it to turn 270°...


I don't care how long an average game takes... I still think it should be some kind of limited in it's usage... JUST FOR FLAVOUR REASON...
maybe I am to much on Flavour... but I think one of the things this game is greath about is it's story behind the cards... why shouldn't we then care about that when we create a V card???

Leon
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Post by Leon » Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:49 pm

oops. Of course I meant 270 degrees. The card text with the effects that I had in mind would be:

Playable at Wellinghall (even if Wellinghall is
tapped). Cancels any stage resources on bearer. Once per turn, this card may be rotated 90 degrees up to 270 degrees for the following effect each time it is rotated. A non-Wizard bearer receives +1 mind, +1 prowess (maximum , and +1 direct influence permanently and if he was wounded, he is now healed.

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Nerdmeetsyou
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Post by Nerdmeetsyou » Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:08 pm

just because i don't understand it...
why does it remove stage cards???

Ringbearer
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Post by Ringbearer » Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:07 pm

BoderHamster wrote:just because i don't understand it...
why does it remove stage cards???
To prevent any misuse with Wizards Myrmidon and similar cards to prevent mindboosting while it doesnt matter (fixed amount of influence used).
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Leon
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Post by Leon » Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:10 pm

If stage cards were allowed I'd use this card to make an unexpected party possible for fw.

Sauron
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Post by Sauron » Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:55 pm

Unexpected party is possible for FW. Thrall + Gimli. Then Discard Thrall.

Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:20 am

Hello BoderHamster and Leon, and welcome to the Playtesting Forum! I'm happy to see you guys giving comments on the V-Cards, and not just critiquing them either, but actually offering alternate suggestions. That's the kind of thing that makes me happy. :)

On the subject of flavor and theme: It's true that the hobbits didn't become supermen by drinking the draughts. However, unless I remember incorrectly, I thought it was suggested that they could have kept drinking and growing, only Treebeard stopped them. At any rate, it probably represents a psychological "maturing" of the hobbits so I can see why thematically we might not want characters to become too much different than they already are... unless we don't mind playing with the idea that the hobbits *could* have kept on growing? Hmm...

There are certainly countless more examples of how to use Ent-draughts then just making Celeborn control Galadriel. Finding the perfect dwarf for your FW (or regular hero) Unexpected Party deck is another option. (Note to Leon: Unexpected Party is also allowed with Ent-Draughts. Simply take a 5-mind dwarf, increase his mind with Ent-Draughts, then play Unexpected Party. The fact that stage resources on the bearer are cancelled has nothing to do with the rest of the Fallen Wizard's resources, which remain unaffected.) Gently tweaking your characters to create the most perfect and efficient DI-controlled company is another, probably what will be more common, possibility. You'll have to plan well, to make sure that the extra mind payoff doesn't interfere with the DI gains.

Leon, I like your new suggestion for different Ent-Draught text. Presently, I actually like Boderhamster's suggestion *more*, although I would be more specific and say something like:

Ent-Draughts (possible option):
Playable at Wellinghall (even if Wellinghall is
tapped). Cancels any stage resources on bearer. A non-Wizard bearer has +1 mind, +1 prowess (maximum eight), and +1 direct influence permanently and if he was wounded when you played this card, he is now healed. During your end-of-turn phase, you may tap this card to take Ent-Draughts from your play deck into hand. Cannot be stolen or transferred.

Another option, which might be more interesting thematically, is to add the rest of what Boder said and make the Draught go immediately to the old bearer of the Draught... if we did this I would say that the item must be at Wellinghall to use it this way, and it would nicely illustrate the hobbit's time spent at Wellinghall, and the longer he spends there the "weller" (ha ha) or bigger he gets.

Do I think the card at present is overpowered? Not for the reasons we were debating at first, though the HEALING option *might* be overpowered, as I think one of us was just beginning to suggest.

Conclusions: It all comes down to whether we think the card is powerful enough that its abilites must be spread out over 3 cards, or whether one card whose abilities are used in stages (Leon's suggestion) is sufficient, or whether the card at present is fine.

I should also add at this point that in general, I aimed for the Virtual Cards to err on the side of being too strong, rather than too weak, because in my opinion it's easier to playtest a card that's too strong and cut back its powers a bit, rather than playtest a card that's very weak and be unsure what to do with it at all. Plus, testers aren't usually that excited to playtest something that looks weak to them. :roll:

At any rate, I don't think it's worth debating this card much longer, until someone actually uses it in a deck for a game (using its old text) and THEN reports back to us with critiques. It's not going to change unless it's actually playtested.

So... how about some game reports, guys?

p.s. please note the most recent text of the virtual cards is version 0.71 which is the text on the virtual card images. (you will need to reinstall your images to see the virtual card images.) the pdf is slightly behind at present, and so is the erratta feature (control-H).

Frodo

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Nerdmeetsyou
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Post by Nerdmeetsyou » Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:30 pm

Okay new topic...

about this cards which allow faction batteling....

I think it should be done in another way....

if you inclued this in the game it should be done as a basic rule, and then we should designe cards which support this theme...

I don't like cards that change the way the game is played so drasticaly...
if such things are done it should be done as a ruleschange...
like it was often done in METW...
and the second reason is that there is so much to write on the card... and I think METW has too much cards with too much text... we should make the cards as clear as possible... I think the cards with too much rules text could have been done another way... OR... you make more than one card out of them!!!

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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:23 am

BoderHamster wrote: if you inclued this in the game it should be done as a basic rule, and then we should designe cards which support this theme...
I partially agree. I think an important control on faction battling is that it will take up deck space to enable it.

But I also agree that support cards are needed. Jambo has suggested quite a few.

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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:50 pm

Dwar Unleashed currently says that Dwar may move a number of regions.

Should it not say Dwar's Company may move a number of regions?
Virtual Dwar Unleashed wrote:He may move 1 region +1

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