Heralded Lord V

Leon
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Heralded Lord V

Post by Leon » Wed May 20, 2009 10:16 am

The last version that was proposed:

Heralded Lord Virtual
Permanent event. Place this card with your Ringwraith if he is in play. Your Ringwraith's company is in Heralded Lord mode and may move using starter movement. -2 prowess, +3 direct influence to entire company while not at a darkhaven. Ringwraith followers in this company that normally require 1 direct influence cost 5 direct influence each instead. [57 words]

Please give comment.

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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Thu May 21, 2009 8:27 pm

Sorry this took me a while:

There aren't many Ringwraiths who can beneficially use Heralded Lord anyway because they suffer a penalty to DI in the mode.

At the top of the heap are the WK and Akhorahil.

Adunaphel and Hoarmurath get up to a 7.

The rest gain minimal benefit.

Of these four, Hoarmurath isn't moving anyway, while Akhorahil doesn't particularly have to worry about a -2 to prowess because of recycling.

In all the WK decks I've used with Heralded Lord, the problem has not been that followers are discarded at a haven. The problem has been that -2 to prowess for the whole company. A RW at 9 prowess stands a reasonable chance of getting through most attacks untapped. A RW of 7 does not. This makes Heralded Lord an unwieldy choice at best, and until that -2 to prowess is replaced by a different penalty, I honestly don't see anybody making use of the card.

Leon
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Post by Leon » Thu May 21, 2009 8:44 pm

I think this is sufficient to playtest it. Other reactions were that the +3 DI to the whole company is way overpowered, so I am not that pessimistic. Furthermore, you do not need Black Horses, which are a weakness as well.

DI with/without Heralded Lord

WK 9/3
Akhorahil 9/3
Adunaphel 9/4
Indur 7/5
Hoarmurath 7/3
Uvatha 5/5
Ren 5/4
Dwar 5/5
Khamul 5/4

The first 5 of these get impressive DI with Heralded Lord. If you put 2 of these in a group and have some cancel cards in your deck, this would probably work.

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Thu May 21, 2009 10:14 pm

why would a company of 3 rw's at 7 prowess have more difficulty to get through untapped than a hero company? Wait a bit to assemle a few guys, or use WKU V. And there's always Ring Leaves its Mark. To boot they have tremendous DI...

on the other hand, this proposal is just like regular HL but without the discard. not very exciting stuff. Sorry if I only make comments, but that's how I see it, and my mind is bit empty of ideas lately :wink:

But Bandobras' earlier proposal to let rw move with non rw chars seems a nicer way to go.
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.

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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Thu May 21, 2009 11:58 pm

So I ask myself -- what motivation will I have to use Heralded Lord if I can build a much stronger vs attacks and nearly as useful DI wise company off of Black Rider?

@ Thorsten:

The -2 to prowess is the difference between being at a 4 untapped vs a 6 untapped. With the average creature attack you'll see running around 10, that's a huge difference. A hero company will have 3 characters before you can blink, but a RW company has to first draw into their avatar, allowing the opponent more time to set up hazards based on what he's seen of your deck..

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Fri May 22, 2009 10:43 am

comparing the alignments, I don't see why rw's would be at a disadvantage prowess-wise. Your calculation is the same for any wizard. And DI-wise they are at great advantage, so the issue is speed. All alignments need to draw their avatar, so avatar based strat is equal there. Only thing is RW's need more time for croonies, I get that. Now if you take all the disadvantages of the RW comp (speed and discarding) and leave them with huge DI, how is that fair?

Your argument is not with me, I said I played HL once in 10 years, it has nothing going for it that BR and/or threats can't do better.

Thus, like I said, to have them move with non rw's is ok in my book, if with lower prowess. Only thing is of course, that this could be used for many other things as well, like ring hunting (automatic test), item hunting (no corruption), opponent hunting (nice unleasheds and magic without ccs, and your back covered). So can you work around that?
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.

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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Fri May 22, 2009 1:27 pm

If I'm going Ring or Item Hunting, I'm still better off in Black Rider or even Fell Rider.

One more consideration on the difference between hero/RW: There are several means of untapping hero characters, even wizards, but the Ring Leaves Its Mark is the only one for untapping RWs, and that only works on your Ringwraith. In the main, it more vital to keep RWs untapped than any other character.

Plus, most of the RWs that benefit from Heralded Lord don't have access to Crept, which is the utility canceler.

Virtually speaking, Adunaphel Unleashed allows her to untap, as well, but the options are still extremely poor.

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Post by Leon » Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:48 pm

I just saw the Steeds V. Correct me if I am wrong. This does not give -2 prowess, +3 DI to the company like Heralded Lord, but only the influence modifications in the RW card text. Also, your RW can not move with followers. Could you explain these choices to me?

Also, what happens to your RW if he is moving and Steeds V is killed?

marcos
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Post by marcos » Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:31 pm

Leon wrote:I just saw the Steeds V. Correct me if I am wrong. This does not give -2 prowess, +3 DI to the company like Heralded Lord, but only the influence modifications in the RW card text. Also, your RW can not move with followers. Could you explain these choices to me?

Also, what happens to your RW if he is moving and Steeds V is killed?
you are correct it does not affect RW's prowess. Right now i can't remember correctly why we decided to make it like this, but prolly it is because non-Fell RWs already have some headache to go through the entire turn untapped to play stuff, so we decided to keep his prowess as it is.

Regarding followers, if you are using a diplomat RW you will be using the Black Council V, wich enables him to move with other people, so in theory, that should be enough to make a nice company.

What happens to your rw if Steeds V is killed? well... he will be stucked at a site during the whole game unless your opponent manages to roll a 7-8 on a bc, so better take care of your horse...
Do you guys think this should be changed?

Leon
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Post by Leon » Sat Aug 01, 2009 1:24 pm

Steeds V
ranger ally, 2 prowess, 8 body, 1 mind
playable by your ringwraith at a darkhaven whether the site is tapped or untapped. Your ringwraith is in heralded lord modus and may use starter movement. may not be duplicated on a given ringwraith.

The Black Council V
permanent event
If your ringwraith is a diplomat, he may be in a company with any other diplomat characters. This card is worth 1 marshalling point if your ringwraith is in a company with a non ringwraith character and at a non darkhaven site.

From the LE rules:
MOVING YOUR RINGWRAITH'S COMPANY
The company containing your Ringwraith may freely move from Darkhaven to Darkhaven and from a non-Darkhaven site to a Darkhaven. However, in order to move from a Darkhaven to a non-Darkhaven site, a Ringwraith must have a special resource card: a Black Rider card, a Fell Rider card, or a Heralded Lord card (i.e., the Ringwraith must be in Black Rider mode, in Fell Rider mode, or in Heralded Lord mode).
So he will reach the site and may even move back to the darkhaven, but only loses the Heralded Lord bonuses. Sounds acceptable to me.

Only the Witch-King and Adunaphel can acceptably pull of the combo with Dark Council V, where I mean better than with Black Horse. In order to compete with Black Rider V, you need some more bonuses. In fact, I would suggest requiring heralded lord mode for Dark Council V.

A first suggestion:
Steeds V
ranger ally, 2 prowess, 8 body, 1 mind
Playable by your ringwraith at a darkhaven whether the site is tapped or untapped. Your ringwraith is in heralded lord modus and may use starter movement. Additionally, You may bring characters into play under direct or general influence at any darkhaven regardless of the location of your ringwraith. May not be duplicated on a given ringwraith.
56 words

The Black Council V
permanent event
If your ringwraith is a diplomat in heralded lord mode, he may be in a company with any other diplomat characters. If your ringwraith is in a company with a non ringwraith character and at a non darkhaven site, this card is worth 2 marshalling points and your ringwraith receives +4 direct influence versus characters. May not be duplicated by a given player.
61 words

This is stronger opens some possibilities, especially for the play of agents.

DI with Steeds / without Heralded Lord

WK 6/3 warrior sage diplomat
Akhorahil 6/3 sage
Adunaphel 6/4 warrior scout diplomat
Hoarmurath 4/3 scout ranger sage
Indur 4/5 warrior diplomat
Uvatha 2/5 warrior scout ranger
Ren 2/4 sage diplomat
Dwar 2/5 warrior scout sage
Khamul 2/4 warrior ranger diplomat

marcos
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Post by marcos » Sat Aug 01, 2009 1:50 pm

You may bring characters into play under direct or general influence at any darkhaven regardless of the location of your ringwraith.
there is already a card that does that. Back to the fray V if i recall correct

Regarding steeds, remember it is playable only by diplomat RWs, we dont want to encourage more akhorahill cheeze, as it seems his biggest weakness is his lack of "rangerness"

The main difference between black rider and black council V is the fact that it allows for non RW characters to be in your RWs company. Btw, playtesting proved that the free MP on black council was too good for a card that is just dropped into the table. Ben suggested making it duplicable but without MPs, that will make the player go faster through his deck rather than giving MPs for no reason, it sounded ok to me and actually the card should read like that but i forgot to edit its text...

i dont like the thing about requiring heralded lord, in deckbuilding terms it will use a lot of space in deck, and one of the 2 parts of this mini-combo might be stucked at the end of the deck...

I agree with you that black council V might need more bonuses to make it a solid choice for deckbuilding but i don't know wich should be the best way to go...

marcos
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Post by marcos » Sat Aug 01, 2009 1:56 pm

i just got a crazy idea based on hero noble steeds. Now that we have black horse V, black horse and Steeds V... We could add a bonus for the entire RWs company if all his characters are mounted... If an orc is in the same company he could also use a warg as steed :D

Maybe:
region movement?
extra movement/hazard phase?
extra prowess/body/DI?

any other idea?

marcos
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Post by marcos » Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:09 pm

:idea: ideas are popping up to my mind:

Steeds V or Black council V can have the following sentence :D :

If all characters in RWs company control a Black Horse, Black Horse V or Steeds V (or a warg ally if the character is an orc), this card is worth 1 marshalling point whenever the company is at a non-darkhaven non-shadowhold, non-darkhold site.

i'd use 1 MP if the sentence is added to Black Council V but prolly 2 or 3 if added to Steeds V because it cannot be duplicated. Keep in mind that this mounts are generally low on body, so it shouldnt be too dificult to kill them.

What do you guys think?

Leon
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Post by Leon » Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:05 pm

Regarding steeds, remember it is playable only by diplomat RWs, we dont want to encourage more akhorahill cheeze, as it seems his biggest weakness is his lack of "rangerness"
This is not true, since Steeds V can be played by any RW. The fact that it is a ranger is an advantage indeed.
Quote:
You may bring characters into play under direct or general influence at any darkhaven regardless of the location of your ringwraith.

there is already a card that does that. Back to the fray V if i recall correct
Ok, nice. I think I read this once and forgot it existed.
i dont like the thing about requiring heralded lord, in deckbuilding terms it will use a lot of space in deck, and one of the 2 parts of this mini-combo might be stucked at the end of the deck...
I think I agree.

My first idea is perhaps more useful. This DI bonus can be used with Black Council V, or to influence characters away from the opponent.

Steeds V
ranger ally, 2 prowess, 8 body, 1 mind
Playable by your ringwraith at a darkhaven whether the site is tapped or untapped. Your ringwraith is in heralded lord modus and may use starter movement. If your ringwraith is at a non-darkhaven site, he receives +4 direct influence versus characters. May not be duplicated on a given ringwraith.

without points:

The Black Council V
If your ringwraith is a diplomat, he may be in a company with any other diplomat characters.

marcos
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Location: Córdoba, Argentina

Post by marcos » Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:26 pm

This is not true, since Steeds V can be played by any RW. The fact that it is a ranger is an advantage indeed.
ummm, no. Steeds V is playable only by diplomat RWs, at least it looks like that in my xml and picture... Maybe you have an older version or something? check here for the original suggestion: http://www.councilofelrond.org/forum/vi ... .php?t=778

I like the idea of the +4 DI if not at a haven, good! Still, i'd like to give a small reward to the full mounted company:

Steeds V
ranger ally, 2 prowess, 8 body, 1 mind
Playable by your ringwraith at a darkhaven whether the site is tapped or untapped. Your ringwraith is in heralded lord modus and may use starter movement. If your ringwraith is at a non-darkhaven site, he receives +4 direct influence versus characters. May not be duplicated on a given ringwraith.

The Black Council V
If your ringwraith is a diplomat, he may be in a company with any other diplomat characters. 3 or more Black Council V in play give 2 MPs if all characters in your RWs company control a Black Horse, Black Horse V or Steeds V (or a warg ally if the character is an orc) whenever the company is at a non-darkhaven, non-shadowhold or non-darkhold site.


I used a sentence similar to the factions that are stackable under a leader, so this way you need 3 black councils (or more if opponent also plays them) and all characters in your RWs comp mounted...

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