Black Rider, They Ride Together and Heralded Lord V

Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Wed May 13, 2009 2:52 am

So here’s where we are:


TAPPING/NOT TAPPING CLAUSE

We are cutting this clause unless two other people make arguments.

PLAY OF UNLIMITED FOLLOWERS
Leon, you wrote that “Limiting TRT to havens for this option (the unlimited RW followers) should be ok, but that is not in there at the moment.” Maybe I’m missing something. Doesn’t TRT (V) currently allow only normal follower playability? In other words, TRT (V) currently allows you to play followers only at havens or follower homesites. This is because it only says “you may play up to two additional RWs”. But original TRT says “you may bring any RW followers into play”, so this card supercedes site requirements and can still be useful. Or am I splitting hairs here? The intention was that new TRT would only grant an exception to the number of RWs you can play, and old TRT functions like a group We Have Come to Kill. Anyone?

WHEN TO ALLOW REGION MOVEMENT?

Leon wrote: “I wanted to allow region movement for the first of the movements of a 6 RW group as well.”

I wondered if this was necessary, did an analysis through a flow-chart like creation, and concluded it was. Here is my mock flow-chart, given a premise that TRT does not allow region movement until you tap for the extra movement, and that TRT is either letting you move to any site or only non-haven sites as Thorsten wants:

**Without Region Movement from the Beginning: **

A) All sites allowed:
a. They start at haven: RW company can use BLACK RIDER ALLOWABILITY to move to a non-haven or else move to a haven, then move again using region movement; fine. Next turn, if they’ve ended at a haven, they’re fine. If not…
b. They start at non-haven: RW company must use HAVEN STARTER to return to a haven, then can move again using region movement. But this is all they can do, because BLACK RIDER ALLOWABILITY won’t let them move from non-haven to non-haven (region movement is needed for that.) This seems limited to me.
B) Only non-havens allowed:
a. They start at haven: RW company can use BLACK RIDER ALLOWABILITY to move to a non-haven, then move again using region movement; fine. They can’t move to a haven if they want to use TRT, ever. Next turn, this brings them automatically to…
b. They start at non-haven: Ugh… they can’t move at all! (If they want to use TRT.)This is because BLACK RIDER ALLOWABILITY won’t let them move from non-haven to non-haven (region movement is needed for that.)

I guess region movement IS needed. Oh well.

HAVEN OR NON-HAVEN?
Let’s test this one too.

**With Region Movement Usable From Beginning:**
A) Only “non-havens” allowed if you want to use TRT:
a. They start at haven: RW company can use region movement to move to a non-haven, then move again; fine. They can’t move to a haven if they want to use TRT, ever. Next turn, this brings them automatically to…
b. They start at non-haven: They must use region movement to move from non-haven to non-haven, then move again from TRT; or if they don’t want to use TRT, they can move back to a haven (that’s the only way they can do it).

Seems okay to me. That’s what I’m writing down, then.

They Ride Together Virtual (new version)
Permanent event. You may play up to two additional Ringwraiths in your organization phase. If at least six of your Ringwraiths control a Black Horse, they may use region movement and you may tap this card when they move to a non-Darkhaven site not in or adjacent to Gorgoroth; their company must move again. If tapped, this card is worth 1 marshalling point for every 3 Ringwraiths you have in play. [71 words]

OR, if we want unlimited RWs:

They Ride Together Virtual (new version)
Permanent event. You may play any number of Ringwraith followers in your organization phase. If at least six of your Ringwraiths control a Black Horse, they may use region movement and you may tap this card when they move to a non-Darkhaven site not in or adjacent to Gorgoroth; their company must move again. If tapped, this card is worth 1 marshalling point for every 3 Ringwraiths you have in play. [71 words also]


CARDS TO REMOVE FROM VIRTUAL SET #1

Okay, so new TRT will be in Set 1 of course, as well as Black Rider. Heralded Lord will wait until Set 2. Are we cutting Fair-travels in Free Domains, or Ent-draughts?

I vote for: cut Fair-travels in Free.

STACKABLE VIRTUAL BH

I would argue for still allowing Black Horse (V) to be stacked on Black Rider (V). This is partly because I don’t like limiting cards to targeting only virtuals or non-virtuals except where absolutely necessary, secondly because the BH (V) ally strategy seems to need the assistance, and finally, I actually WANT to see Ringwraiths using combinations of original and virtual Black Horses… it would be very cool to see the virtual BH’s shadow-land ability kick-in through They Ride Together! By the way, I see stacking the BHs (original and Virtual) on Black Rider (V) as thematically representing this wild herd of horses being gathered…

Frodo

Leon
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Post by Leon » Wed May 13, 2009 6:56 am

You are right that TRT virtual allows to play followers at haven or homesite only.

The reason I wanted to have TRT effective for 6 RW, is that you can still play the strategy if your opponent is a RW. Not that there is any discussion about this.

I vote for cutting the Fair Travels in Free Domains as well, since I will incorporate Ent-Draughts in a deck somewhere.

I do not mind playing Black Horse V with Black Rider V.

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Wed May 13, 2009 8:18 am

I actually WANT to see Ringwraiths using combinations of original and virtual Black Horses…
Don't worry, it will be abused soon enough, because even with the new movement ability, many a competitive RW will still squat probably (hoarmurath, adunaphel, WtYFS, BtR, BtRW), and then you'll just get ally play from sb somewhere last turns. And other competitive RW's will be in fell rider (Khamul), or indeed the new heralded lord (Witch-king).
it would be very cool to see the virtual BH’s shadow-land ability kick-in through They Ride Together!
how likely will that happen to be, you want to use your active RW's to go horse hunting? I'd say they'd have more important missions to complete :wink:
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marcos
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Post by marcos » Wed May 13, 2009 12:15 pm

damn Joe! you always do so extensive posts!

Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Mon May 18, 2009 10:04 pm

Okay, well, this one will be a short post:

Any last opinions on whether TRT should allow play of unlimited RW followers during org, or only a few followers?

Once we settle this, we are DONE with TRT!!

Frodo

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Mon May 18, 2009 10:13 pm

I don't think in practise it will matter much, so that makes it in favour of unlimited. If you manage to play more than 3 per turn, even with KU V or WKU V, then more power to you! I don't think unlimited will speed it up to the point of being problematic.

My concern was more for playing BR and TRT without the intention of forming the whole company, just moving out in strong number as quickly as possible. But, now that you don't start with TRT anymore, I suppose that danger is gone.
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marcos
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Post by marcos » Mon May 18, 2009 11:25 pm

Frodo wrote:Okay, well, this one will be a short post:

Any last opinions on whether TRT should allow play of unlimited RW followers during org, or only a few followers?

Once we settle this, we are DONE with TRT!!

Frodo
im ok with it

Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Mon May 18, 2009 11:54 pm

Okay, so here are the final versions, both for VSet 1, with Fair-travels in Free-Domains being CUT from Set 1.

They Ride Together Virtual (new version)
Permanent event. You may play any number of Ringwraith followers in your organization phase. If at least six of your Ringwraiths control a Black Horse, they may use region movement and you may tap this card when they move to a non-Darkhaven site not in or adjacent to Gorgoroth; their company must move again. If tapped, this card is worth 1 marshalling point for every 3 Ringwraiths you have in play. [71 words]

Black Rider Virtual
Permanent event. During your organization phase (or immediately after a ring is played), you may place a Black Horse from your sideboard with this card. These Black Horses may be played as if in hand. If at least half your Ringwraiths control a Black Horse, their company is in Black Rider mode and may move to non-Darkhaven sites. You may start the game with this card in lieu of a minor item. [72 words]

If someone wants to open a new thread for Heralded Lord (V) discussions, we can do that, and when something looks ready (maybe it’s already ready), Marcos can add HV to VSet 3 for playtesting. Marcos, if you can add the above versions to VSet1, removing Fair travels in Free, that would be great.

This thread should now be closed, unless new problems are thought of.

--Frodo

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Post by Ringbearer » Tue May 19, 2009 8:37 am

Small remark about TRT. The wording is a bit awkward tome. Because it untaps at the start of the turn, its very unlikely to remain holding the points.
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Nerdmeetsyou
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Post by Nerdmeetsyou » Tue May 19, 2009 12:39 pm

I thought we would agree now on leaving it tapped IF YOU WANT TO????

Leon
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Post by Leon » Tue May 19, 2009 1:42 pm

Joe argued to have the card untap. I agreed and several people with me. Also, I do not think much discussion is needed, unless you come up with good new arguments.

Clase closed as far as I am concerned, at least until we have had a load of playtesting.

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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Tue May 19, 2009 1:48 pm

Leon wrote:Case closed as far as I am concerned, at least until we have had a load of playtesting.
Considering some of the other loads that have been flying around, the least we can do is have a load of playtesting. ;)

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Nerdmeetsyou
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Post by Nerdmeetsyou » Tue May 19, 2009 2:32 pm

okay... seems like a good point....
first playtesting the new idears before starting to argue again...*G*

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Tue May 19, 2009 3:04 pm

yes, let's playtest first.
before, you needed no horses but all 9, now you don't need all 9 but 6 horses, frankly I don't know what is more vulnerable, but I guess if you're on the safe side, you will still be able to move next turn should you for some reason not be able to do anything during site phase, so untapping is not a problem.
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marcos
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Post by marcos » Wed May 27, 2009 12:33 pm

ok, i've been looking at the 2 new cards and my old virtual decks...

1- why on earth we've taken out the old Black Rider from the list of cards that can be taken from sideboard???!!! That was the best thing that ever happened to active RWs (not doing the 9 riders quest), because you could draw the RW in the first turn with some luck and start moving, now that is not possible, creating possible delaying AND handclog. It should read:

Permanent event. During your organization phase (or immediately after a ring is played), you may place a Black Horse or a non-Virtual Black Rider from your sideboard with this card. Such cards may be played as if in hand. If at least half your Ringwraiths control a Black Horse, their company is in Black Rider mode and may move to non-Darkhaven sites. You may start the game with this card in lieu of a minor item.

2- For a 9 riders quest now you have to stack your deck 3x TRT and 3x black rider, leaving too little space for other stuff; is it possible to word the card in a way that it cannot be duplicable and be worth the 9 MPs like we want?
Something along these lines:
If at least six of your Ringwraiths control a Black Horse, they may use region movement and you may tap this card when they move to a non-Darkhaven site not in or adjacent to Gorgoroth; their company must move again 1 time for each 3 RWs you controll. If tapped, this card is worth 3 MPs for each 3 RWs you have in play. Cannot be duplicable.

This way you just need to stack 3x black riders and just 1x TRT (unless you want to draw it quickly, there is still the possibility to include more than 1)

thoughts?
Last edited by marcos on Wed May 27, 2009 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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