(V suggestion) Ghosts

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:38 pm

Why should it belong in sideboard? in case of what?
The main reason to make this card, if I understood Marcos' proposal, is to simply represent the powerful threat of those that dwell in the mountain (with kind permission of Lord Elrond) and to honour their part in the story. Then next we're trying to invent a cool purpose for them.

Thus, first off, it should be a creature I suppose keyable to the sites mentioned. Does it really matter whether it's a perm that creates an auto, or a creature playable at those sites? Generally yes that would matter, but since the sites are so limited, we'll have to give it an alter anyway otherwise the card is useless, and thus it will be played as perm in 99% of the cases, only to be revived when necessary. Then I'd rather it be a creature, so you can get it back with Uvatha, or with Exhalation, should opponent marvel it.

Next, whether you let it attack from perm state like Shelob or return it to hand like Spider O Morlat, I don't think it matters that much, only that the latter gives you more options in case of backfiring, and it seems more elegant and thematically just to me when you want to play it hunting a minion as a Gorn player.

As for the scary effect, I would say the perm has to simulate the fact that Men in the Gondorian regions were at the same time scared by the dead to the point of paralisis, but also reminded of the result of being unfaithful and siding with the forces of evil. Men are complicated creatures, they are constantly put to the test by the Dark, and liable to fail that test out of fear, but when they do pass it they get strenght renewed and vigour and fight even more fiercely against evil.

So, what does this amount to? Maybe we can let men make a rather big cc, but if they fail they are tapped, and if they pass they may untap?
Or, a big minus on bringing into play man factions in Gondor, but if you do get them they are worth +1 mp.
Sending back home if failing a mind check is nice too, but then also some benefit if passing, like untapping maybe.

My Arda version of Stone of Erech lets men pass a test, and if they pass they get bonus vs. undead and on corruption. This could also be an idea, as the obvious thing would be to combine Ghosts V with undead strategy, so you can help your own characters if you are prepared.

Ghosts (V):
Creature/ Permanent-event - (6) (18/7)
Unique. As a creature, playable at Vale of Erech or Pukel-deeps. If Army of the Dead is in play, also playable against overt companies keyed to the site where Aragorn II is, or region containing that site. Undead: 1@18/7. Attacker may opt to add strikes to Ghosts, with each extra strike reducing its prowess by 2 and body by 1.
As a permanent-event: each Man or Dunadan character moving through Rohan, Gap of Isen, Old Pukel-land, Lamedon or Lebennin, or at a site in these regions, must make a corruption check at the end of movement/hazard phase, modified by -5. If failing this check: character must tap, if passing this check: character may untap.

So, just a shot. The mechanism is interesting, since it can be a blessing and curse to yourself, as you're probably bound to play Gorn deck, you will include at least 1 Dunadan, but a chance to untap Gorn is always nice...
Ideally we could say sites in Gondor, but unfortunately that bigger Territory isn't officially defined for meccg yet.
Perhaps certain Fallen Saruman players won't like the adding of Gap of Isen to the list, hehe.
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Post by marcos » Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:58 pm

nice version! i would replace overt companies for minion companies. After all they raped corsairs...

and i think i prefer the return to site of origin option if they fail, and untap if they dont :)

and why not attack at dunharrow as well? it was the entrance to the path...

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:10 pm

Well Dunharrow was the Rohirrim encampment, it was pretty safe there, from there you can take the path to the dimhold entrance, but the entrance isn't there. I thought about adding Dunharrow if Doors is in play, but it would only get longer. If you move with Gorn to Dunharrow, opponent can play Ghosts anyway when he goes to Vale of Erech. And a squatting Theoden gets in trouble too much with this probably, he already has sellswords and assassins to deal with.

well since most covert minions get detainment from the normal hero creatures (dwarves/dunadan/elves), I thought Aragorn wouldn't attack them either, and the ghosts do whatever Gorn tells them, and if they act alone they would go for the apparently evil guys I suppose. Also if you say minion comps, over FW wouldn't get attacked, so you must say both.

Sending back can be pretty harsh, with effect on Fellowships or otherwise, and also it wouldn't have any effect on squatters, like a Wormtongue sitting in Isengard....
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Post by marcos » Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:24 am

exactly as you said, "normal" creatures. But unique ones knows wich are the good ones and wich are the bad boyz: elflords, maia, lord of the carrock, master of the house, etc... So in my oppinion they should attack all minion companies.

about squatter companies, yes i think your option is better, but maybe something a bit more harsh than just tap? :)

and what about attacking as perm event state? like shelob or put back to hand using 1 against the hazard limit like spider of the morlat... i'd like some of that...

Ghosts (V):
Creature/ Permanent-event - (6) (18/8 )
Unique. Undead. 1 Strike. Playable at Vale of Erech or Pukel-deeps. If Army of the Dead is in play, also playable against minion companies keyed to the site where Aragorn II is, or region containing that site. You may reduce prowess/ body by 2/1 to add a strike.
As a permanent-event: each Man or Dunadan at or moving through Rohan, Gap of Isen, Old Pukel-land, Lamedon or Lebennin makes a corruption check at the end of movement/hazard phase, modified by -5; failing this check character taps, if not character untaps. Additionaly, all influence attempts by Man or Dunadan at such regions are modified by -3. As an event, you may use 1 against the HL to put this card into your hand.

this is the better version i can think of... but maybe it is too cramped, i modified some of the wording to make it shorter. I added the -3 to influence attempts to make the card a bit more stronger though the minus modifier can be a bigger or lower number...

:arrow: What about making them playable at White mountain caver ways V?
:arrow: Or maybe instead of modify influence attempts, increase hazard limit?

Dunno... options, options...

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:41 am

ah yeah, forgot about that part, good you worked it in, like I said, I would prefer take back to hand over attack from perm state.

tapping peeps can be very nice, if you bear item with cp's, or you play some Lure's, chance to tap him is pretty big, no matter how high themind....Gorn wants to play Army? prove you can stand the dead, or feed them some cookies!

I think adding hl is not that nice.
You modify influence attempt by man/dunandan, instead of man factions there, why? -3 to attempt isn't that bad, just choose wizard to do it, but -3 against factions is big if there's no benefit.

Play at WMC, that's cool! but no space :cry:
You think the extra perm ability is necessary to make it worth while?
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Post by marcos » Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:54 am

You think the extra perm ability is necessary to make it worth while?
i thought so in the first time... but not sure about it now, maybe it will be adding stuff to the card just because...

Maybe removing such clause and add the WMC keyability unless you can think on some other cool ability...

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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:15 am

It's not that cramped btw.
In fact 'influence attempts against Men and Dunadan factions in these regions are modified by -3' could be a curse and blessing, if you're a Gorn player it will also guard you from opponent playing these factions (like sentinels), you can bring it to hand anyway, and you can prepare with some Lordly Presence, and Sorryman can actually use his normal Robes to talk the Men out of the fear of Death :wink: . So, why not?

You made WMC a regular site, so it would be easy to add to Pukel/Vale. If so, Gold Chains V should also be playable there :wink:
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Post by Leon » Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:36 am

I think Marcos last suggestion has enough interesting effects to start playtesting the card. Perhaps you should put in the phrase (no maximum) after the strike modification, because I would read this as 1 @ 18/8 or 2 @ 16/7 with no other options.

Personally I would leave out the influence effect. In a Gondor deck you often already use Sentinels of Numenor. But you can always try and remove this or change the number.

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Post by marcos » Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:00 am

okay, so:

Ghosts (V):
Creature/ Permanent-event - (6) (18/8 )
Unique. Undead. 1 Strike. Playable at White Mountain Cavern Ways V, Vale of Erech or Pukel-deeps. If Army of the Dead is in play, also playable against minion companies keyed to the site where Aragorn II is, or region containing that site. You may reduce prowess/ body by 2/1 to add a strike (no maximum).
As a permanent-event: each Man or Dunadan at or moving through Rohan, Gap of Isen, Old Pukel-land, Lamedon or Lebennin makes a corruption check at the end of movement/hazard phase, modified by -5; failing this check character taps, if not character untaps. Additionaly, all influence attempts against Men or Dunedain at such regions are modified by -3. As an event, you may use 1 against the hazard limite to put Ghosts V into your hand.

Added the words character/ factions so it could also help you against an opponent who is trying to influence your characters away.
This way it keeps with the idea of harming and helping :)
You made WMC a regular site, so it would be easy to add to Pukel/Vale. If so, Gold Chains V should also be playable there
i took note about that ;)
Last edited by marcos on Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:50 am

but if you skip faction, it only applies to characters I suppose. nb. Dunedain is plural, Dunadan is singular, so it would be Men and Dunedain, or Man and Dunadan factions.
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Post by marcos » Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:54 am

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:but if you skip faction, it only applies to characters I suppose. nb. Dunedain is plural, Dunadan is singular, so it would be Men and Dunedain, or Man and Dunadan factions.
i think it applies to all but will have to look for that somewhere in the rules to be sure...

EDIT: just asked in the rules forum and the answer was that it applies to characters as thorsten said.

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Post by marcos » Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:35 pm

Do we use the (*) for them or not?
I don't think heros should be awarded MPs for defeating army, after all, their rol in the story was very important...

6 MPs or 6* MPs ???

Also, wich ghost picture should we use? LE or TW? i also like the picture of Plague of wights LE for an army of the dead card, but the fact that it is unique will prevent the normal plague of wights to enter play

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Post by marcos » Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:29 pm


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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:17 pm

I'm not convinced yet, for starters the purists might say Men does not equate to Man or Man faction. Either way gramatically it's not correct, and that counts for something in a cardtext.

Hmm, on the one hand I would not make it (*), they attack normally, you deserve mp's, and before Aragorn came along they weren't an army but a threat. On the other hand, minions wouldn't get mp's for a non (*) creature....if you can defeat this, it should be mp's to both.

I would use mele Ghosts, metw version looks cooler, but mele version more thematic.
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Post by Nerdmeetsyou » Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:24 pm

why restict it to some edition..???
let everbody choose by his own...

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