LeadFact, What's the deal? (nerfing)

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rezwits
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LeadFact, What's the deal? (nerfing)

Post by rezwits » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:38 am

Who is the genius that came up with this ruling (for Leader Factions) (Chad Martin) :D ?

» Factions played with a leader are worth two extra MP per group of factions, not per faction [CRF].

I have been playing it fine with this ruling, but I find this just so limiting to a point, in that it's really cool, but made trivial.

For instance you can go get a regular old Orcs of Gundabad for 3 MP, done.

In order to get, let's just say the 5 MP, for three 1 MP Factions, you have to almost every time go the whole 1st deck, till the end.
Not to mention dedicate a Leader to stay there some times a Lieutenant, lets say. When you get all three, you get a total,
for the whole game commitment 8 MP. What? 8 MP? I mean ok, let's say you got 3,3,3+3= 12. Is this something that is SO BONKERS?

No where on the card does this have a "Can't be duplicated" etc. in the Original Ruling.

The only reason I say this, is because trying to make Short Game Decks (RW), and use the cards we are given, I find that all a Wizard deck or even a Fallen-wizard deck has to do is SNEEZE, and they practically have 40 MP! I mean Radagast thru Wilderness is insane, he is just like BOOMP. Done, whatcha got? A 1 MP Orcs of Udun, and no items. Sorry kiddo 35 MP to 18 MP.

I mean honestly when you can commit to a Dunlendings, Ice-Orcs, or Hillmen, or for crying out loud a Dragon Faction, with practically no commitment.

In my testing you have two options.

You can go with either:
Lieutenant at 9 G.I. (getting 5 D.I.)
or
Troll-chief at 6 G.I. and use a Minor Item, Blazon of course
and ensure that you get your ROLLS IN. And if you get lucky and get a Uruk-Hai, then GREAT!

But this is MAXIMUM.

This leaves you with 11 G.I.!
What the heck are you gonna do with 11 G.I.?
or 14 G.I. and 1 Minor Item Option Left?

I mean the rule was never there, and we are talking about 8 MP vs 12 MP, in which RW-players really have a hard time getting over the 30 MP threshold.

Don't get me wrong tho, look at this Scenario:

Two Lieutenants 1st turn, they move and post up.

One at Ungol, One at Gorgor. Now you can't really do much, to you know, wreck 'um. They just post up and WILL score. So, with this FULL COMMIT, you end up with:

1,1,1,2+3 = 8 MP
1,1,1,2+3 = 8 MP
16 MP, done. DONE!

I mean it's BORING, and a CAMPER deck, but it exists. But it fails!!

Let say under, what should be normal rulings.
3,3,3,+3 = 12 MP
3,3,3,+3 = 12 MP

Now you have a STANDARD 24 MP, but you still lose? but with the Uruk-hai 2 MP

12,12,2= 26 MP?

But here I am like WHAT IS THE RULING FOR?? TOTAL 100% commit, you can't even win?
you just get a STANDARD 26 beats 25, and that SHOULD BE how this is SCORED.

if these were 2 MP factions then I would be OK the Ruling make 100% sense, they just aren't and it just doesn't...
sure 4+4+4+3=15 would be crazy. For not having to work, and to have something, somewhat easy.

Just something to DISCUSS. Because I believe the founding fathers intended for us to build the Mordor Hosts!!

Laters...
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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rezwits
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Re: Leader Factions, 3 Lieu

Post by rezwits » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:16 pm

Here is another example, using the Lieutenant Auto Post-up Strategy.

Let's say its you the wizard, vs a guy playing a Lidless Eye (manifestation), with a 3 Headed Monster (3 Lieu)?

He starts the game with 2 Lieu, they post up, then he get's his L.E.Mani. Drops a 3rd Lieu.

He now has 3 Posts: Ungol, Teeth, and, Barad Dur.

Total Score:
3,3,3+3=12 MP
3,3,3+3=12 MP
3,3,3+3=12 MP
and we'll give him a Uruk-hai Success:
12+12+12+2=38 MP (not even going to TALK ABOUT the HALF MP restriction) in which he could only have a MAX of 18!!)

At this point you're like "EXACTLY it's broken this is why."

But to me in the Spirit of the Game this is EXACTLY WHY, a Wizard has to MIX it up.

Because if this is all your Sauron player friend does you can STILL get almost 40 MP!

Because you're gonna Double your Items (+10 MP), and Double your Ally (+4 MP)
Say you get a nice 7 Char | 10 Item | 4 Ally | 5 Fact | 2 Kill | 2 Misc = 30 MP, (adjusted = 44 MP!)

Now if your opponent happens to run down down to Goblin Town and Risk it, to get a Two-headed Troll, then you come away with 40 MP and he has 39MP, unless he wants to get a Spear, you get 34 and you LOOSE (34/40) !

But my gosh, you are playing against Sauron, and he could have lost the game twice to an Elf-lord! Unless he's got some Down Down to Goblin Town...

BUT here is my serious case:

The REAL FUN!

Let's say you're like this is LAME, he just AUTO POSTS up and wins (NOT SO).

As a Wizard, and a good player, you can just recognize the situation.
Let say you're guys are pretty stoked (well equipped)
You're just gonna sit back and wait for council?
HELL NO!

GOTO Cirith Ungol, and defeat the Troll in CvCC, and WIN THE GAME.

Because, you've got your 34, Ge's got his 40 (unless you count the half MPs rules, which we DO and he only can have 22 MP!)

If you beat the Troll even, he get's destroyed! 6 Char | 1 Item | 1 Ally | 8 Faction = 16 MP!

Check this we'll go optimal. Let say he throws in some companions, 1 MP Characters to be "Troll buddies," who will sit under D.I. of the Lieutenants after they get there 3 factions.
12 Char | 1 Item | 1 Ally | 14 Faction | 0 Misc = 28 MP! again you should be able to defeat this?!?

So this [CRF] ruling, I feel is made in haste and error, with fear of it being abusive when it's JUST NOT...

Laters...
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Re: LeadFact, What's the deal? (nerfing)

Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:00 pm

uhm, hmm, :roll: , that's a lot of talking! Perhaps you should start a podcast? :lol:

but if I understand you correctly, you're saying 5 faction MP's for a squatting Leader isn't good enough? Never heard anybody make that case before, but ok, there's a first for everything.
your thinking is a bit limited though, one does not need to play 3x squatting leader, a good deck can (and should) diversify. Mordor decks have other companies running around.
Plus there is the speed element to consider. A FW defintely does not just sneeze to win (ok FW Rada does).
Plus, it seems you play your games without hazards?
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.

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Bandobras Took
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Re: LeadFact, What's the deal? (nerfing)

Post by Bandobras Took » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:47 am

3 or more factions controlled by the same leader give 2 extra faction marshalling points.
In other words, the group of factions collectively gives 2 extra faction MPs.

The fact that the wording can be misinterpreted is why they clarified it.

ICE was probably erring on the side of caution in the matter of faction play. If they went too far in that matter, it's worth noting that they also did so in the matter of active RWs.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly.

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rezwits
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Leader Factions

Post by rezwits » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:29 pm

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:00 pm

but if I understand you correctly, you're saying 5 faction MP's for a squatting Leader isn't good enough?
Well yeah that's what I am getting at. Because there are 13 Factions that are WORTHLESS.

Because you're gonna have a bad ass, sit at Ettenmoors for instance and post up, and he's gonna get 5 MP?

Dude just go get Ice-orcs, be done, let him roam, or even die. wtf? I mean a Wizard can go get, Southrons for 5 MP and really say DONE!

What I was getting at is if you use HALF your Character Resources (D.I. and/or a Minor Item) to Squat, that's quite a bit of investment, for 7/8 pts. I mean it would be 11/12 pts?

I mean in the end is it so bad to read the card, and resolve each effect of EACH card? and get

1 + 1 + 1, then 2 + 2 + 2? for 9?
and I understand he can get corrupted or have other hazards affect him, but mainly most are detainment, except corruption.

But to have a guy camp the whole game? Like a Lieutenant for instance, and get only 5 MP? That's seems WAY OFF in scoring...
Bandobras Took wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:47 am
3 or more factions controlled by the same leader give 2 extra faction marshalling points.
In other words, the group of factions collectively gives 2 extra faction MPs.

The fact that the wording can be misinterpreted is why they clarified it.

ICE was probably erring on the side of caution in the matter of faction play. If they went too far in that matter, it's worth noting that they also did so in the matter of active RWs.
The reason they made that clarification was because normally, a FW would only get 1 MP due to their MP scoring system, and there isn't a stage card that would allow them to get that 2 FULLY, like the other stage cards fix the MP scoring. So they noted you get the 2 for the group not 1.
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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rezwits
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Leader Factions

Post by rezwits » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:49 pm

Yeah I guess all in all I am crying, I know :(

But it's like, I just have a deck with

Open to the Summons
Whispers of Rings
and a Lieutenant

I have my other guys go get allies and items. The Lt. goes and camps, unless he can get an Ally really quick.

I get to the end of the game, and 25% of the time the Agent with Summons dies, and maybe a ring survives, a Rolled + Mouth double blindside.

At the end the RW gets 17 MP!
and the Wizard has 30 MP?

And yes I am playing hazards, but man if a Wizard player's company gets 2 swords? Lights OUT! Score Score Score...

I mean in the above situation it would be 21 MP to 30 MP, the 4 extra from Leader Factions is almost still trivial.

Another case, is in a ONE DECK - Short Game, sometimes I just have a hard time getting 25 MP, in the 1st go around, unless EVERYTHING goes 100% perfect. It usually comes in around 21 MP if say 1 mishap...

Just saying it seems really easy to get MP using other scenarios especially for minion if you want to. But I would like to play leader factions...

But like I said I know I am crying. But gees an extra 4 MP for 3 Factions and Camping/Squatting the whole game? OR Leave your hand jammed with 2-3 Factions and then have him go over there and then Squat.

I see the strategy switch I need to do here, I need to jam my hand.

n.b. OH I almost forgot, don't forget about Muster Disperses (thank goodness Minion players get the extra +5 G.I., where your 5 MP becomes 2 MP, for sitting "Half" the game...
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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Re: LeadFact, What's the deal? (nerfing)

Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:36 am

Leave 1 Orc-captain or Troll-chief with a Blazon of the Eye, Awaiting the Call at Cirith Gorgor to bring in some factions and some Trackers. For 2 GI you have a decent shot at 5 MP and fulfilling the faction requirement. Meanwhile your other guys go do cooler stuff.

After the factions are played, you can dump some Blasting Fires on them, some Tribute Garnered. If you go for Cirith Ungol you can play Long Grievous Siege, but you're more vulnerable to Golodhros (and/or attacking companies), though there's no harrassment from Nameless Things.

but agreed, in 1 deck games only big mp stuff counts. That's just a downside of that format (which nobody plays).
And hero factions in METW are overpriced (especially Southrons, Iron Hills, Easterlings), and squatting at Ettenmoors for minions is too risky.

most people go for high MP resources, it's easier, you have more slots for support cards, and cardflow is often better. But scraping for the 1 mp stuff can be profitable in a tournament, as you'll hardly ever drop below a certain MP score, even if things go bad.
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.

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Re: LeadFact, What's the deal? (nerfing)

Post by rezwits » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:49 pm

Awaiting the Call, nice touch!

[-me_wh-]
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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