Heart Grown Cold vs. Hero Perm Events

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zarathustra
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Heart Grown Cold vs. Hero Perm Events

Post by zarathustra » Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:21 am

B_took wrote:Wondrous Maps says:

"This card is used as a site card, Ruins & Lairs [R]."

1) This means that Rebuild the Town can be played on it, correct?

2) In that case, since it becomes a Border-Hold, how would Heart Grown Cold affect it? Or would it?
Yuk.

The site will be a hero borderhold after Rebuild is played. Heart Grown Cold then instructs the player to replace it with the corresponding minion borderhold. This is, of course, impossible.

I think we probably should deal with this as a sub-problem of the bigger question already raised on the boards: how does Heart Grown Cold affect sites with perm events on them in general?

It seems to me there are 3 issues:

(1) How to deal with normal hero sites that have hero permanent events on them;
(2) How to deal with special sites created by hero resources;
(3) How, in particular, to deal with special sites created by hero resources which are also targets of hero resources (e.g., Wondrous Maps with Rebuild the Town).

Possibly there is a fourth issue:

(4) How to deal with hero sites that have been transformed into wizard-havens.

However, I think the answer to this is clear: they are not affected by Heart Grown Cold.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My first reaction is to say that with (1) the hero permanent events are discarded, since they will otherwise be targeting a minion site. With (2) and (3), however, the answer is not so clear. Probably, we should just say that nothing happens. There is no site to exchange for, and so there is no exchange possible.
Last edited by zarathustra on Sun Jun 24, 2007 1:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Wacho
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Post by Wacho » Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:28 pm

I agree.

zarathustra
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Post by zarathustra » Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:31 am

Proposed ruling:
there are 4 questions here: (a) How to deal with normal hero sites that have hero permanent events on them; (b) How to deal with special sites created by hero resources; (c) How, in particular, to deal with special sites created by hero resources which are also targets of hero resources (e.g., Wondrous Maps with Rebuild the Town); and (d) How to deal with hero sites that have been transformed into wizard-havens.

With (a) the hero permanent events are discarded, since they will otherwise be targeting a minion site. With (b) and (c), however, nothing happens. There is no site to exchange for, and so there is no exchange possible. Finally, with (d), such sites are not affected by Heart Grown Cold.
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miguel
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Post by miguel » Sun Jun 24, 2007 7:26 am

Aye.

zarathustra
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Post by zarathustra » Sun Jun 24, 2007 1:35 pm

Published in Digest 118.

Done. Locked. 8)
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Re: Heart Grown Cold vs. Hero Perm Events

Post by miguel » Mon May 28, 2012 5:33 pm

Unlocked! :P

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Heart Grown Cold vs. Hero Perm Events

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue May 29, 2012 5:12 pm

Ok.
Do effects (rules/cards) that says that FW player must use sites of certain alignment affect sites of given type, or site cards of given type?

I'm opting for latter because:

1).
White Hand, Special Orc and Troll Rules wrote:• A Fallen-wizard’s overt companies must use hero sites for Shadow-holds, Darkholds,
and minion Darkhavens. They must use minion sites for Border- holds,
Free-holds, and hero Havens
There is no generic type of site like hero Haven, or Darkhaven. There are only four site cards that are normally hero Havens and four that are normally Darkhavens (plus two Balrog Darkhavens, that FW player may not include in his LD).
Especially for Darkhavens it is clearly visible that former option does not make a sense, because hero versions of Darkhaven cards are never Darkhavens.

2)
Former option makes the Hold Rebuilt and Repaired immediatelly discarded (unless played on site with Double Dealing).
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Re: Heart Grown Cold vs. Hero Perm Events

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue May 29, 2012 5:20 pm

Konrad Klar wrote: 2)
Former option makes the Hold Rebuilt and Repaired immediatelly discarded (unless played on site with Double Dealing).

I should say: "Former option makes immediatelly the Hold Rebuilt and Repaired's an illegal target (unless played on site with Double Dealing)".
I was jumping to conclusion that illegally targeting cards should be discarded.
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Re: Heart Grown Cold vs. Hero Perm Events

Post by marcos » Thu May 31, 2012 12:52 pm

Do effects (rules/cards) that says that FW player must use sites of certain alignment affect sites of given type, or site cards of given type?
after discussing with mikko, i'm inclined to say that they affect site cards of the given type. To me it looks like ICE thought that writing "site card" twice in the same sentence could be redundant.

For me, this:
Heart Grown Cold wrote:Fallen-wizard players must use minion site cards for hero Havens . If a Fallen-wizard has more than 4 stage points, his player must also use minion site cards for Free-holds . If a Fallen-wizard has more than 7 stage points, his player must also use minion site cards for Border-holds .
should read like this:
Heart Grown Cold wrote:Fallen-wizard players must use minion site cards for hero Havens site cards. If a Fallen-wizard has more than 4 stage points, his player must also use minion site cards for Free-holds site cards . If a Fallen-wizard has more than 7 stage points, his player must also use minion site cards for Border-holds site cards.

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Re: Heart Grown Cold vs. Hero Perm Events

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:51 pm

Proposed ruling:

An effects that force FW player to use sites of different alignment refer only to the type of site card (i.e. normal type of site), also if site is converted to other type.
They do not affect non-site cards that counts as site (e.g. Refuge).
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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