Baduila, Golodhros and returning to site of origin

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Baduila, Golodhros and returning to site of origin

Post by Konrad Klar » Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:56 pm

(ii) A company that has declared movement during org phase, becomes a moving company at the beginning of its own move/haz phase. Here "a moving company", "a company moving", "a company en route" etc. are all synonyms. Once that company ends its own move/haz phase, it seizes to be a moving company. Such a company may still be returned to its site of origin due to company composition rules violations.
Tell me whether I understand correctly.
"it seizes to be a moving company" means "is considered to be a moving company"?
If so, I assume that such company has no path and is not considered as moving through regions by name. Right?
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Re: Baduila, Golodhros and returning to site of origin

Post by miguel » Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:17 am

I mean that at the end of a company's move/haz phase (when you reconcile your hand), that company is no longer considered a moving company. It becomes one at the start of its own move/haz phase, then stops being one when that company's move/haz phase ends. So for regular movement (not using Great-road etc.), the company would be a moving company only during its own move/haz phase. (This was for the framework, will explain application below.)

Now before the latest CRF addition, the company's new site would have become its current site at the end of that company's move/haz phase. So I'm suggesting we keep the original idea of that company finishing its movement during its own move/haz phase, and the only thing the latest addition changes is the status of that company's site. Formerly the "new site" changed into "current site", but because now the company is not at the site, it cannot be "current site". Unless there is some situation where it would become problematic, I suggest that site remains the company's "new site" until the site phase.

The explanation of my framework in the previous post assumed nothing is considered "a moving company" outside its own move/haz phase. Unfortunately we have cards that are playable on such companies in the org phase, so for the real world I suggest the following approach.
moving, schmoving wrote: "A moving company" is simply a keyword which has absolutely no meaning by itself. If a company is considered a moving company during the org phase (company has announced it will move), it simply means certain cards become playable and nothing else.

When a company actually moves, meaning they move during the company's own move/haz phase, or move with the use of a card like Great-road, then "a moving company" is synonymous with a company moving, a company en route etc. But this applies only when the company actually moves, not before and not after.

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Re: Baduila, Golodhros and returning to site of origin

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:13 pm

Thanks for explanation. I just was not sure of meaning a word "seized". :oops:
Unless there is some situation where it would become problematic, I suggest that site remains the company's "new site" until the site phase.
Probably is not problematic.

IF goal is an establishment that protect companies not taking its M/H phase from effects affecting moving companies AND prevent companies that moved from taking activities that require a company being at site* THEN your framework serves that purpose.
Because in its current form it is consistent it may be called framework, and (no longer) patchwork.

We must live with legacy of ICE, that used some terms imprecisely. Avoiding issuing errata where it is possible.
What about:
Cards playable during organization phase on "moving company" are playable on a company that annouanced its movement**. Such company is not considered "moving company" for any other purposes until M/H phase of the company.
Cards playable during organization phase on "non-moving company" are playable on a company that annouanced that it stays on site.
?

P.S.
Consequences for Golodhros: its effect may be used against company taking its M/H phase and againts companies waiting for its M/H phase, and againts companies returned to the site of origin, but not against companies that already moved (because agent must be at new site of moving company, but company already moved is not considered moving).
Consequences for Baduila: may be discarded to return moving company and companies that already moved*. Baduila's effect only check for new site, not for "moving" status.

*) does not affect companies returned to the site of origin during M/H phase.
**) considering effects of Siege "a company that annouanced its movement" is not the same as "a company that has announced its intention to move".
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Re: Baduila, Golodhros and returning to site of origin

Post by miguel » Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:18 am

I think I'd formulate a possible ruling a bit differently, to account for No Way Forward (and possibly any other similar cards).
Proposed ruling wrote:When a company during the organization phase announces that it will move this turn, that company is now considered a moving company for the purposes of cards that refer to a moving company during the organization phase. The company is not considered a moving company for any other purposes until that company's movement/hazard phase.

When a company during the organization phase announces that it will not move this turn, that company is now considered a non-moving company.
Are there cards that refer to a "non-moving company" or do they just refer to companies not moving? If it's the latter, then having the whole line about a non-moving company might not be necessary.
Konrad Klar wrote:Consequences for Golodhros: its effect may be used against company taking its M/H phase and againts companies waiting for its M/H phase, and againts companies returned to the site of origin, but not against companies that already moved (because agent must be at new site of moving company, but company already moved is not considered moving).
I guess you are basing the underlined section on the DM rules quote below:
Dark Minion Rules wrote:To influence an ally, follower, or character, the agent must be at the new site for the target or at the target's current site if the company did not move. To influence a faction, the agent must be at the site at which the faction is playable.
I don't think Golodhros would require a company to be "a moving company" in order to influence a character/ally at that company's new site. It seems to be enough that the company has moved (already took its move/haz phase), but still has a new site where Golodhros is also.

Re: Baduila I agree, he is now able to return a company back to its site of origin after their move/haz phase. This is due to the CRF addition about the company not being at the site until the site phase. It's probably necessary to rule that a moving company's new site remains its new site until the site phase.

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Re: Baduila, Golodhros and returning to site of origin

Post by Konrad Klar » Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:23 pm

Are there cards that refer to a "non-moving company" or do they just refer to companies not moving? If it's the latter, then having the whole line about a non-moving company might not be necessary.
"The company is not considered a moving company for any other purposes until that company's movement/hazard phase."
makes
"When a company during the organization phase announces that it will not move this turn, that company is now considered a non-moving company."
necessary.
Otherwise a company that announced that it will move this turn would be valid target for both Washed and Refreshed and Hide in Dark Places. (playing Hide in Dark Places does constitute other purpose; right?)
Alternatively change:
"[...] that company is now considered a moving company for the purposes of cards that refer to a moving company during the organization phase."
to
"[...] that company is now considered a moving company and is not considered not moving for the purposes of cards that refer to a moving/not moving company during the organization phase."
I assume that "not moving" and "non-moving" is the same.
I guess you are basing the underlined section on the DM rules quote below:
[Lawyer mode]
Yes.
Actually fact that agent must be "at the target's current site if the company did not move" does not mean that he "must be at the new site for the target" only for moving companies. And this means also that companies returned to a site of origin are safe from Golodhros; they did move.
[/Lawyer mode]
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Re: Baduila, Golodhros and returning to site of origin

Post by miguel » Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:46 pm

Yeah you're right, we need the 2nd line, although for the ruling I guess I'd prefer to use the exact wording that cards like Hide in Dark Places have (non-moving vs. company not moving). To cram all the information in a single line would make it quite complex to read/comprehend.

RE: Golodhros, this is getting a bit sidetracked, but CRF says "A company that gets sent back to its site of origin is not considered to have moved to that site this turn". I know things are not clearly stated and A might not include B, but A does give us room to decide whether it should include B. Here's my take on a breakdown of companies in different phases and where Golodhros should be in order to influence a character/ally in that company:

(i) Company staying at its current site - Golodhros at current site
(ii) Company has announced it will move this turn, but it's not that company's move/haz phase yet - Golodhros at current site
(iii) Company moving during its move/haz phase - Golodhros at new site
(iv) Company already moved - Golodhros at new site
(v) Company moved but was sent back to its site of origin - Golodhros at current site (site of origin)

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Re: Baduila, Golodhros and returning to site of origin

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:14 pm

Company returned to its site of origin did not move (at least in its last M/H phase) to its site of origin but this company did move in general.

Because (in contrast to companies that successfully moved) returned company is at site I do not see a reason of retaining its status site of origin/new site (to which it formally even did not move).
In short: its former site of origin becomes its current site immediately after returning (or there is rule that says explicitly otherwise?).
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