Agent movement restrictions

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miguel
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Agent movement restrictions

Post by miguel » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:23 am

Eric's Q and my reply wrote:agents may not move to Havens. Which sites are used for reference for this? I assume your (direct) opponent's versions, not the "alignment's " version? Moria is Darkhaven for Balrog, but not for other minions...

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This is a tough one, something I've wondered myself from time to time. I found two relevant CRF entries about it:
  • - Agents may not move to any version of a hero Haven, unless they have a special ability allowing them to.
    - Only Elven agents can move to a site that is a Wizardhaven.
This much is clear, all versions of Hero Havens are always off-limits, regardless of player alignments (unless card overrides rule like Anarin). Minion Darkhavens have no effect on agents, they can move there freely. With Wizardhavens, things could get more complicated, and I see two possibilities.

First, the wording of the CRF entries are different, perhaps suggesting the Wizardhavens are to be treated differently from Hero havens. In that light I would venture a guess that if either (or both) of the players is a Fallen-wizard, all versions of sites that are considered Wizardhavens within the game are off-limits for non-elf agents. Like if either player is FW Radagast, then all versions of Rhosgobel is a Wizardhaven for this purpose. And any new Wizardhavens created during the game would of course be off-limits. If neither player is FW, agents can move to Isengard etc. freely.

Second, and this is a much more simple option, treat Wizardhavens similarly to Hero Havens. So The White Towers, Isengard and Rhosgobel are always off-limits to non-elf agents, as well as any new Wizardhavens that pop up. I'm always a fan of K.I.S.S. and can't think of any compelling reason to not go with this interpretation. However, I will discuss this one with the netrep team to issue a ruling.

I understand your thoughts about agent movement vs. opponent alignment, but if you play FW, your agents (just like the other hazards) are not working for your FW even though it kinda looks like they are. So it makes sense they would stay away from The White Towers, even though it's your FW and your agent (same reason agents controlled by Hero players don't get to go to Hero Havens).
So, how/when do the agent movement restrictions for Wizardhavens apply? The CRF entry about it seems a bit vague, and it is unfortunate so many entries were cut short (I'm assuming it came from an ICE digest), not giving us a clear idea about its context. :?

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Agent movement restrictions

Post by Konrad Klar » Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:52 pm

- Only Elven agents can move to a site that is a Wizardhaven.
Because no player uses FW site cards for agents and no hero/minion version of site card is Wizardhaven, either "a site that is a Wizardhaven" means "a site that one of versions is Wizardhaven", or this phrase has no impact on game (at least whith current set of cards).

If I understand, the main concern is whether this check (is/is not version of Wizardhaven) applies to current state of game, or to the existence of Wizardhaven site cards in players Location Decks.

Like a non-Wizardhaven sites may become a Wizardhavens, a Wizardhaven site cards may become a non-Wizardhavens. This is true even for FW Rhosgobel - Fallen Gandalf opponent may play Chambers in The Royal Court on hero Rhosgobel, any FW may play Mischief in Mean Way under some conditions. Afterwards, under some conditions A Nature's Revange may convert all versions to [-me_rl-]. The same may be achieved by combo of New Moon and Vile Fumes.

Honestly I do not see a sense of maintaining a two procedures - one that refer to Wizarhaven site cards in Location Decks and play, second for Wizardhaven sites currently in play.
First - it does not result from rules explicitly (and at such level of saturation with sloppy wording it is hard to say what result implicitly).
Second - it does not solve any problem.
Third - it creates a problem - an inconsistency.

Proposed Ruling:
Agent hazards may not move to site that any version currently in play is Wizardhaven, unless they have an ability that allow them to move to Haven. [That part is optional:] If agent without such ability that has moved becomes face-up and at least one of site cards used by him is version of a Wizardhaven currently in play, then his travel is considered illegal.

("that has moved" exclude situation when agents appears at his Home Site, that by coincidence is version of Wizardhaven - he has not moved to Haven).
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Agent movement restrictions

Post by Konrad Klar » Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:23 pm

And one remark:
A fact that FW player has FW Isengard in Location Deck does not guarantee that when this card will be played next time it will be new Wizardhaven in play. In meantime someone may play Rebuild The Town/Hold Rebuilt and Repaired and discard Vile Fumes at the site. Or some other effect that changes type of all version of site can be used.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

miguel
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Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:21 am

Re: Agent movement restrictions

Post by miguel » Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:22 am

Counting only Wizardhavens currently in play seems like a clean solution. I like it.

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