Item/Ally/Faction Timing

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miguel
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Item/Ally/Faction Timing

Post by miguel » Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:40 am

There are several threads up now that need this to be worked out. Does playing an item/ally/faction follow normal timing rules? Assuming they do, doesn't that mean they need to be declared and resolved in a chain of effects?
LE Rulesbook: Timing Rules wrote:You and your opponent may both want to perform actions at the same time or actions that are sequenced with respect to other actions. This can happen during your movement/hazard phase (or during your site phase if your opponent has a card on-guard). Such actions almost always include playing a card, tapping a card already in play, and revealing an on-guard card.
Your opponent may always declare an action in response before your action is resolved. Then, you may respond to his action, and he can respond to your second action, and so on until neither player can (or wants to) perform an action.
You must give your opponent a chance to respond to every action, and vice versa. If you perform an action and move on to another action without giving your opponent a chance to respond, you must "backup" if he indicates that he wants to respond.
Such a series of declared actions is called a chain of effects. You always have the option of declaring the first action in a chain of effects during your turn. The actions in a chain of effects are resolved one at a time from last declared to first declared (i.e., the last declared action is resolved first, then the second to the last, etc.).
You may follow one of your declared actions with another of your declared actions in the same chain of effects, so long as you give your opponent a chance to respond to first action.
An action in a chain of effects is negated if the conditions required to perform it are negated by another action that is resolved before it in the chain of effects.
Creature hazards may not be played in response to other actions. They must always start a chain of effects.
CRF: Turn Sequence Rulings: Site Phase: On-guard wrote:# A revealed on-guard card retroactively takes effect as though it were both declared and resolved immediately prior to the chain of effects during which it was revealed.
# An on-guard card may be revealed when the company plays a resource that potentially taps the site. The card must affect the company or a character in the company that site phase. Note that this clarification is looser than the rule printed on page 61 of the Unlimited Rules book.
These quotes indeed suggest that playing item/ally/faction does follow normal timing rules because they need to interact with on-guards, and that there is a chain of effects. So how exactly would item/ally/faction declaration and resolution be broken down? Can they be declared in response to something, can something be declared in response to them? There was some concern about 'playing' and 'succesfully playing', and I share that concern, because things can get confusing very quickly.
CRF: Rulings by Term: Playing a Card wrote:Playing a card is the process of bringing a card from your hand into play.
CRF: Rulings by Term: Nazgûl wrote:If a Nazgûl is tapped to become a short-event as printed on its card, it turns into a short-event upon declaration. At this point, the Nazgûl is a short-event just as if had been played as such from your hand.
Does playing a card not mean its declaration? As for items/allies/factions, a site only taps upon their succesful play, which I took as meaning their resolution. I will think more about this and post some chain breakdown proposals later. I'm of course open to suggestions too. :wink:

miguel
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Re: Item/Ally/Faction Timing

Post by miguel » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:24 am

Would/should the following scenario be possible: I move Shagrat and Ufthak to Mt Gundabad, opponent plays Foolish Words on-guard. I cancel the automatic-attacks and tap Shagrat to play Orcs of Gundabad, in response opponent reveals Foolish Words and gives it to Shagrat. Now let's say I also have in my hand High Helm, could I now tap Ufthak to play that in response (the requirement of an untapped site exists)? If yes and no more responses are made, High Helm would be succesfully played and Mt Gundabad tapped, and Orcs of Gundabad would fizzle because the requirement of an untapped site no longer exists?

Yes I know I could just wait to see whether Shagrat gets the faction or not, but if playing items/allies/factions follows normal timing rules, shouldn't the above be possible?

marcos
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Re: Item/Ally/Faction Timing

Post by marcos » Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:57 pm

According to this:
You and your opponent may both want to perform actions at the same time or actions that are sequenced with respect to other actions. This can happen during your movement/hazard phase (or during your site phase if your opponent has a card on-guard). Such actions almost always include playing a card, tapping a card already in play, and revealing an on-guard card
such scenario would be indeed possible, but only if opponent has an on-guard card.

miguel
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Re: Item/Ally/Faction Timing

Post by miguel » Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:34 am

I don't think the presence of an on-guard really matters, the quote you refer to just lists revealing an on-guard as an example. Whether or not there is an actual on-guard shouldn't matter to the timing (rules) for playing items/allies/factions.

miguel
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Re: Item/Ally/Faction Timing

Post by miguel » Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:08 pm

Ok I gave it more thought, some sample chains below...

(A)
<start chain>
(i) tap character to declare the play of item and place item with character*
(ii) opponent may reveal on-guard per rules because the company played a resource that potentially taps the site
<nothing more is declared, chain begins to resolve>
(iii) item is (succesfully) played: tap the site
<end chain>

*item is not considered in play until it has resolved

(B)
<start chain>
(i) tap character to declare the play of a faction, this creates an influence attempt with an influence check
(ii) opponent may reveal on-guard per rules because the company played a resource that potentially taps the site / in response to the influence attempt if certain conditions are met
(iii) play A Friend or Three to modify the influence check
<nothing more is declared, chain begins to resolve>
(iv) A Friend or Three resolves
(v) make the influence check roll, adding any modifiers
  • -if succesful, put the faction in your MP pile: tap the site
    -if unsuccesful, discard the faction
<end chain>

(C) In this one Heedless Revelry is on-guard and will be revealed per card text: "...may be revealed as an on-guard card on a company in response to the play of an item, ally, or faction. Tap all untapped non-Ringwraith, non-Wizard characters in the company."
<start chain>
(i) tap character to declare the play of item and place item with character
(ii) opponent may reveal on-guard per rules because the company played a resource that potentially taps the site (but declaration of playing does not meet requirements of Heedless)
<nothing more is declared, chain begins to resolve>
(iii) item is (succesfully) played: tap the site
(iv) Heedless is revealed per its card text: tap all untapped non-Ringwraith, non-Wizard characters in the company
<end chain>

Note that it would be possible to declare Marvels Told after (ii), before the chain begins to resolve, but not in response to Heedless at (iv).

Thoughts??

miguel
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Re: Item/Ally/Faction Timing

Post by miguel » Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:41 pm

Found some old scriptures (ICE Digests) that shed a little light into this. The key point is in the 3rd scenario, underline is mine.
Unknown ICE Digest wrote:As a final, encompassing example of the NEW on-guard rules, Muster Disperses cannot be revealed as an on-guard card for three reasons.

1) Muster Disperses cannot target a faction played during the site phase during which it would be revealed because this target did not exist during the movement/hazard phase.

2) Muster Disperses cannot target a faction already in play at the start of the site phase because it would not affect a company or a character in the company.

3) Muster Disperses cannot target a faction played during the site phase during which it would be revealed because this target does not exist when Muster Disperses would be revealed. A card can only be revealed in the same chain of effects as the play of a resource that potentially taps the site, and this resource actually is not resolved and cannot be targetted at that point.
Pretty sure items and allies should follow the same timing/logic.

Nailed it? :D

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Item/Ally/Faction Timing

Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:13 pm

1.
Seems that I've overlooked something (it was March 2011, so maybe it is not important now).

Why in example (C) declaration of playing does not meet requirements of Heedless?

2.
Is not a getting rid of event that modify AA considered action that affect AA?
If so, how about Muster Disperses on faction with Grond?
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

miguel
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Re: Item/Ally/Faction Timing

Post by miguel » Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:53 am

1.
Hmm I think there was some talk about Heedless, if it should be considered "in response to the succesfull play of" which that chain reflects, but I'd say you're right and example (C) is faulty in that regard.

2.
Heh, I'm not sure. Muster Disperses tries to get rid of the faction, which in turn would get rid of Grond, and getting rid of Grond is key. When Muster Disperses fails to discard the faction it hasn't affected the AA in any way. This, depending on interpretation, could be fine under the old rules, but the new text seems more strict (underlines are mine):
MELE Rules wrote:During the movement/hazard phase of your opponent's turn, you may place one card on-guard for each of your opponent's companies. This card is played face down next to the company's new site or next to its current site if it did not move. Any card can be placed on-guard (i.e., it does not have to be a hazard, you can bluff). Such a card does count against the hazard limit for the company it is placed on. The card will remain on that site until one of the following occurs:
· The company decides to face the site's automatic-attack. If the on-guard card is a hazard creature keyed to the company's site or a hazard that can modify the automatic-attack, it may be revealed before the automatic-attack is resolved. If it is a hazard creature, it will attack after the automatic-attack is resolved.
Revised On-guard Rules wrote:An often confusing point is when and if certain hazards can be revealed as on-guard cards. There are two cases when a face down card may be revealed, and, thusly, affect an opponent's company: 1) when the company announces it will face a site's automatic-attacks (before the automatic-attack is itself faced), and 2) when the company plays a card keyed to the site.

For case #1, it is essential to realize that if the site has no automatic-attacks (like all normally occuring Free-holds), you cannot reveal an on-guard card according to this criterium. Additionally, an event that modifies the prowess of a character may not be revealed--only hazards that modify an automatic-attack itself can be. A creature revealed as an on-guard card is not considered an automatic-attack--it is considered a hazard creature attack.
The difference in the passages underlined could be non-existent, again depending on one's interpretation. But in summary, looks like Muster Disperses would not be allowed.

miguel
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Re: Item/Ally/Faction Timing

Post by miguel » Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:13 am

Oh yeah, then there's this.
CRF: Card Errata and Rulings: Muster Disperses wrote:Muster Disperses cannot be revealed as an on-guard card.

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