Troll Purse / Free Minor Item Timing

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miguel
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Troll Purse / Free Minor Item Timing

Post by miguel » Thu Mar 17, 2011 8:57 am

Karsten's Question wrote:If I play an item at an under-deeps site I may immediately play a second item. When may Troll-purse be revealed and what happens then?
Troll-purse wrote:Playable on a site with an Orc or Troll automatic-attack. When any item is played at this site, the company must face all automatic-attacks of the site again with the attack's prowess modified by +3. Any successful strike does not harm the character, but rather the character is taken prisoner at the site.
The rescue-attack equals all automatic-attacks of the site at the time of rescue.
Note that according to Troll-purse's card text, the item does not need to be succesfully played.
CRF: Rulings by Term: Passive Conditions wrote:Annotation 9: If a card specifies that an action is to occur as a result of some specific passive condition, this action becomes automatically the first action declared in the chain of effects to immediately follow the chain of effects producing the passive condition. The passive condition must exist when this resulting action is resolved in its own chain of effects, or the action is canceled. Note that actions in the strike sequence follow a different set of rules.
CRF: Rulings by Term:Minor Items wrote:The option to play a 'free' minor item directly after playing a resource that taps the site is available in the site phase only.
I think "directly" means "immediately", which seems to be supported by several Digest Rulings.

----

Ok, so here we go. Company has faced the auto-attack and decides to play a greater item. Troll-purse is on-guard.

<start chain 1>
(i) character taps to play greater item and that item is placed with the character
(ii) on-guard is revealed and is considered declared and resolved prior to chain 1, Troll-purse triggers
<nothing more is declared, chain 1 starts resolving>
(ii) greater item is succesfully played: site taps
<end chain 1>

Now both playing the free minor item and the attack from Troll-purse need to happen immediately. Passive condition rules state the attack from Troll-purse becomes the first declared action (if there are several actions like this the resource player chooses the order of declaration). So perhaps we can say Troll-purse's attack needs to be declared first.. or should the resource player be able to choose the order? I mean, are there really different levels of immediately..?

<start chain 2>
(i) attack from Troll-purse gets declared
(ii) character taps to play free minor item and that item is placed with the character, Troll-purse triggers again
<nothing more is declared, chain 2 starts resolving>
(iii) free minor item is succesfully played
(iv) company faces the (first) attack from Troll-purse (and at this point, before strike-assignment, has multiple nested chains available to cancel the attack etc. per the CRF quote below? ehh, my head hurts...)
<end chain 2>
CRF: Turn Sequence Rulings: Movement/Hazard Phase: Attack wrote:Between an attacks declaration and the assigning of the strikes there is time for multiple chains of effect. Thus you could for example make two attempts to cancel the attack or your opponent could use Hoarmurath for an extra strike, recycle him and add another strike.
And since Troll-purse triggered again in chain 2...

<start chain 3>
(i) attack from Troll-purse gets declared
<nothing more is declared, chain 3 starts resolving>
(ii) company faces the attack from Troll-purse
<end chain 3>
.
.
.
Thoughts?

Sauron
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Re: Troll Purse / Free Minor Item Timing

Post by Sauron » Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:42 pm

An attack has to be the 1st thing in a chain, you can't have an attack spawn an attack can you? You can't chain them like that no?

Wacho
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Re: Troll Purse / Free Minor Item Timing

Post by Wacho » Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:29 am

I think Troll-Purse interrupts the normal play of your 2nd item. As stated this happens immediately after the first chain is resolved. The attack happens and then if the resource player still has an untapped character he can tap to play his additional item. Since he hasn't chosen to do anything in between the play of the 1st item and 2nd (he was attacked, but that was not initiated by him) the limitation that the play of the 2nd item be directly after the first is still satisfied in my opinion. If he does play an additional item then of course troll-purse gets activated again.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Troll Purse / Free Minor Item Timing

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:02 am

I think that if player may take action B immediately after action A, this means that he cannot take other actions between A and B.
However it does not mean that nothing may happen between A and B.
ShadowFax wrote:Unique. Playable at Edoras or Dunharrow. If his company only has one character or one character and a Hobbit at the end of the movement/hazard phase, tap Shadowfax to allow his company to immediately move again; an additional site card may be played and an additional movement/hazard phase follows for that company.
"allow his company to immediately move again" does not mean that the company may for example omit corruption checks from Lure of Nature.
Right?
No News of Our Riding wrote:Playable on an untapped character immediately after his company faces an Elf, Dúnadan, or Man hazard creature. Tap the character. The character can later tap to cancel an Elf, Dúnadan, or Man hazard creature attack against his company. Cannot be duplicated in a given company. '...they were errand-riders of Gondor; Hirgon was one maybe.'-LotRVI
"Playable on an untapped character immediately after his company faces an Elf, Dúnadan, or Man hazard creature." does not mean that company may precede with this card a tapping caused by Knights of the Prince.
Right?

Moreover playing an item may trigger other actions - from Lure of Expedience, from Greed, or Known to an Ounce.

Other thing:
Annotation 15: An attack must be the first declared action in a chain of effects, i.e., a
creature card may not be played in response to another card in the same chain of
effects.
We should take it literally and wholy - along with part after "i.e."
This does not mean that attack cannot declare itself. After all this happens sometimes e.g. if multiple Ahunt are in play.
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miguel
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Re: Troll Purse / Free Minor Item Timing

Post by miguel » Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:49 am

So, are you saying in the Troll Purse example the resource player would need to completely resolve its attack (play appropriate resources etc.), finishing that chain of effects before being able to play the free minor item? Or does he have a choice how to handle the timing?

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Troll Purse / Free Minor Item Timing

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:07 pm

First. It is nowhere stated in rules that immediately means "in the same chain of effects".
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miguel
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Re: Troll Purse / Free Minor Item Timing

Post by miguel » Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:16 pm

True, but it's not stated that playing an item must start a chain of effects either, right? I mean, couldn't the resource player then opt to play his free item in response to the attack from Purse (in order to avoid getting all tapped out before he can play the freebie)?

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Re: Troll Purse / Free Minor Item Timing

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:28 pm

Actually it is implicitly stated so.
Dark Minions wrote:Normally, when you successfully play an item, faction, ally, or information at a
site, the site card is tapped and one additional character may tap to play a minor
item. At an Under-deeps site, you can play any item playable at the site instead of
this minor item.
Underline mine.

Player does not know whether playing a resource will be successful, or not. He cannot assume so even in case of some items (e.g. The Ithil-Stone).
Formally playing of resource never can be considered successful until done.
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miguel
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Re: Troll Purse / Free Minor Item Timing

Post by miguel » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:06 pm

Sorry, I don't quite follow. Here's how I see it going down, from OP:

<start chain 1>
(i) character taps to play greater item and that item is placed with the character
(ii) on-guard is revealed and is considered declared and resolved prior to chain 1, Troll-purse triggers
<nothing more is declared, chain 1 starts resolving>
(ii) greater item is succesfully played: site taps
<end chain 1>

<start chain 2>
(i) attack from Troll-purse gets declared
...

The first item is succesfully played now, is it not? So what's stopping me from playing the free minor item in the next chain of effects? (The roll for Ithil-stone would have happened in chain 1.)

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Troll Purse / Free Minor Item Timing

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:15 pm

Nothing may stop you from playing second item in response to Trolls attack.
According to my current knowledge.

Sorry. I have misread your previous question (I've misread as: second item in response to first item).
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miguel
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Re: Troll Purse / Free Minor Item Timing

Post by miguel » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:32 pm

Right. And according to your previous examples, it should not be mandatory for the resource player to play his free minor item in the same chain that the attack from Troll Purse gets declared/resolved. He can choose to do so, or to wait until the attack has been faced, then play the free item in chain 3 (before doing anything else). Correct? :)

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Re: Troll Purse / Free Minor Item Timing

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:35 pm

Yes.
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miguel
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Re: Troll Purse / Free Minor Item Timing

Post by miguel » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:41 pm

Beautiful.

Marcos: Anything add? Does this sound good?

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Re: Troll Purse / Free Minor Item Timing

Post by marcos » Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:54 pm

considering that chain 3 is still "immediately" after playing the first item (and resolving all the other "immediately" effects), then yes, that should be correct :P

I still find messy the different leves of immediately though...

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