Hall of Fire Revisited

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Sauron
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Hall of Fire Revisited

Post by Sauron » Mon May 25, 2009 10:00 pm

Hall of Fire wrote:Playable on a Haven. Any company at this Haven immediately following its movement/hazard phase may choose for one of its characters to untap or heal (from wounded to tapped). Discard Hall of Fire when the site card is returned to the location deck.
CRF wrote:A target is an entity that an action is played out through. Enitities are only targets of an action if the action specifies those entities by number and type. Note that "the foo" counts as specifying one "foo."
What is the target and action? Can there be multiple targets and actions?

http://www.councilofelrond.org/forum/vi ... php?t=1166
Last edited by Sauron on Mon May 25, 2009 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sauron
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Post by Sauron » Mon May 25, 2009 10:01 pm

My thoughts:

A target is an entity that an action is played out through. In this case it's a company. Hall of Fire states "Any company at this Haven immediately following its movement/hazard phase may choose for one of it's . . ." So what we have here is Hall of Fire "targeting" a company for that company to choose a character in it's company to untap.

However according to CRF:
"Enitities are only targets of an action if the action specifies those entities by number and type. Note that "the foo" counts as specifying one "foo."

So the entity here is a company. However a number of companies is never defined. It says ANY company. Therefore the company is NOT a target. So the action can be played out on a company and does not target the company.

Sauron
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Post by Sauron » Mon May 25, 2009 10:03 pm

Bandobras Took wrote: You don't untap the company. Therefore the company is not the entity through which the untap action is played out. The company is the entity through which the choice action is played out.

Sauron
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Post by Sauron » Mon May 25, 2009 10:08 pm

The crux of the issue is this:

Is it

1 Action
Entity: "Any Company"
Action: "Choose a character in that company to untap or heal"

2 Action
Action 1
Entity: "Any Company"
Action: "Choose a character in that company"

Action 2
Entity: "A character"
Action: "untap or heal"

Sauron
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Post by Sauron » Mon May 25, 2009 10:11 pm

I give weight to 1 Action as the text of Hall of Fire States:

"Any company at this Haven immediately following its movement/hazard phase may choose for one of its characters to untap or heal (from wounded to tapped)."

Not:

"Any company at this Haven immediately following its movement/hazard phase may choose for one of its characters. That character may choose to untap or heal (from wounded to tapped)." or something similiar.

It's 1 continous sentence and not broken up. Yours to discuss and figure out, I've given my 2 cents :)

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Post by Konrad Klar » Sat May 30, 2009 9:15 pm

Sauron wrote:My thoughts:

A target is an entity that an action is played out through. In this case it's a company. Hall of Fire states "Any company at this Haven immediately following its movement/hazard phase may choose for one of it's . . ." So what we have here is Hall of Fire "targeting" a company for that company to choose a character in it's company to untap.
[...]
Whose target?

Some card in play causes action invoked multiple times. The same cards itself may have other target than actions they are causing have. Sometimes cards itself does not have any target (e.g. all long-events).

One important thing (I hope there is an agreement in this question) - for a target of action the declaration of the action must exist.
Sauron wrote:"Any company at this Haven immediately following its movement/hazard phase may choose for one of its characters to untap or heal (from wounded to tapped)."

Not:

"Any company at this Haven immediately following its movement/hazard phase may choose for one of its characters. That character may choose to untap or heal (from wounded to tapped)." or something similiar.

It's 1 continous sentence and not broken up. Yours to discuss and figure out, I've given my 2 cents Smile
Unfortuanatelly texts of Hall of Fire is yet another example of compressed text (Bandobras Took's TM). If read literally it does not make sense. Player (company?) cannot choose for wounded character between "untap" or "heal", nor for tapped character between "heal" and "untap". Only second option is valid in each of two cases.

So primary question is what supposedly would be written in text of Hall of Fire.

P.S.
Last question - timing of actions caused by Hall of Fire.
CRF, Turn Sequence, Movement/Hazard Phase, General wrote:Annotation 25a: A company's movement/hazard phase is concluded when a moving company removes its site of origin and both players agree to reconcile (discard down to/draw up to) their hand sizes. No resources (and obviously no hazards) can be played, and no resource effects can be activated, until the site phase or until both players have drawn cards for the movement of a following company.
Underline mine.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

Sauron
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Post by Sauron » Sun May 31, 2009 5:21 am

Konrad Klar wrote:Last question - timing of actions caused by Hall of Fire.
CRF, Turn Sequence, Movement/Hazard Phase, General wrote:Annotation 25a: A company's movement/hazard phase is concluded when a moving company removes its site of origin and both players agree to reconcile (discard down to/draw up to) their hand sizes. No resources (and obviously no hazards) can be played, and no resource effects can be activated, until the site phase or until both players have drawn cards for the movement of a following company.
Underline mine.
Just have time to go over this.

I would think this would be a case of card text over-riding rules. But you bring up a good point.

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Post by miguel » Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:58 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:P.S.
Last question - timing of actions caused by Hall of Fire.
CRF, Turn Sequence, Movement/Hazard Phase, General wrote:Annotation 25a: A company's movement/hazard phase is concluded when a moving company removes its site of origin and both players agree to reconcile (discard down to/draw up to) their hand sizes. No resources (and obviously no hazards) can be played, and no resource effects can be activated, until the site phase or until both players have drawn cards for the movement of a following company.
Underline mine.
I believe the above CRF entry does not apply here, because you as the player do not activate Hall of Fire's effect, rather it triggers by itself (compare to discarding Cram for example).

From what I gather, the actual question here is if you are able to use Hall of Fire to untap a troll, correct? That is actually a really good question and right now I'm inclined to rule that you cannot, as per you not being able to use a troll to play Escape (kind of reverse Hall of Fire). Does that make sense?

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Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:04 pm

I think the Hall of Fire effect is comparable to Cram anyway. Actions that are triggered activate even if it is inconvienient for player. There is no option to not activate such actions.
Maybe it is case similar to the Reach of Ulmo that may be played when nothing normally may be played.
That is actually a really good question and right now I'm inclined to rule that you cannot, as per you not being able to use a troll to play Escape (kind of reverse Hall of Fire). Does that make sense?
Being condition of action and being the object affected by the action are different things.
Narya can untap Troll, Troll cannot tap to activate actions from Praise of Elbereth, but if Doors of Night is in play Troll get bonus to prowess.

As I said before:
"Any company at this Haven immediately following its movement/hazard phase may choose for one of its characters to untap or heal (from wounded to tapped)."
is a puzzle. It (if read it literally) does not make sense.

It would mean that action from Hall of Fire may be invoked for each company at the Haven and then as result of action player can choose tapped character to untap it or wounded character to heal it.
If choosing of character is part of main effect then character is not target (if it would be target it should be choosen at declaration, not later).*

It also would mean that action is invoked for one appropriate character (but only for one in each company at the Haven). Then such character would be target (of aciton from HoF, not target of HoF itself, it is obvious that if card was played earlier and something was not its target, it may not become its target later).

*) I cannot imagine any situation where something (declared in response) could potentially remove/untap/heal character affected by HoF. However formally that are different things (choosing at declaration and choosing at reslution).
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

miguel
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Post by miguel » Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:23 pm

Ok, makes sense. So to put it simply: HoF creates a passive condition, and the resulting action can legally target a troll. True?

Konrad Klar
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Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:51 pm

No. It is not action caused by passive condition (because it is not mandatory) .
Yes. I think it may untap/heal troll.

P.S.
White Hand rules says that Orc/Troll cannot be target of hero resource, resource that require skills cannot use Orc/Troll, Orc/Troll cannot tap to initiate an effect from a hero resource.
Please note that:
- character untapped/healed by HoF does not tap.
- untap/heal is final result. It does not serve activating of additional effects.
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miguel
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Post by miguel » Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:10 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:It is not action caused by passive condition (because it is not mandatory)
Is that a rule or your opinion?

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Post by Konrad Klar » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:05 am

It is as I understand the existing rule:
CRF, Rulings by Term, Passive Conditions wrote:A passive condition causes an action to happen as stated on a card already in play.
If something causes an action to happen, I cannot help - the action must at least be declared.

However if "causes an action to happen as stated on a card already in play." would include "gives option to take action as stated on a card already in play." then we will have whole bunch of actions casused by passive conditions.
Storing of resources in end of turn phase as stated on Safe from The Shadow. Attacking with agent a company that do not enter site as stated on Near To Hear a Whisper. Returning cards to hand/deck as stated on From The Pits of Angband. Tapping Gollum to discard The One Ring and Gollum (if at the same site).
Gollum is, I think, good example. CRF entry for Gollum says:
"The text on Gollum is an ability that you can choose to use."
Actual text of Gollum sounds like its ability was mandatory action.

And I don't quite see a way the timing of action caused by passive condition would be used in such situations.
If a card specifies that an action is to occur as a result of some specific
passive condition, this action becomes automatically the first action declared in the chain of effects to immediately follow the chain of effects producing the passive condition.
Once when company is at Haven and end-of-turn phase starts the action "store resources" is declared [Safe from The Shadow]???

Not all conditions are passive conditions. Some conditions requires certain activity from players for action to happen.
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Post by miguel » Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:34 pm

I just posted this in CoE Digest #121 so it got out before Worlds:
Ruling wrote:Can Hall of Fire be used to untap an orc or a troll?
---------------------------------------------------
Yes. HoF does not target the orc/troll directly so that's legal.
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