Please give us your feedback - 2018 Annual Rules Vote

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the Jabberwock
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Please give us your feedback - 2018 Annual Rules Vote

Post by the Jabberwock » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:03 pm

The Rules Oversight Committee would love to have your feedback on the Annual Rules Vote for 2018.

Please use this topic to share any comments you have for us.

If there is something you particularly liked, please mention it, so that we know it is important to continue doing that moving forward.

If there is something you particularly disliked, please mention that also, so that we know what areas we need to improve or do differently.

Thank You for your feedback and participation!

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Khamul the Easterling
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Re: Please give us your feedback - 2018 Annual Rules Vote

Post by Khamul the Easterling » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:42 pm

A big Thank You everyone involved in organizing the Annual Rules Vote!!
I really appreciated the whole procedure, including...
- participation: Everyone interested being able to make a suggestion
- timing: Sufficient time for both discussions and voting
- discussion threads: Providing space to discuss the suggestions before the actual voting procedure
- final rules proposals: Maybe the biggest point: You did extremely well in summarizing the proposals, giving current rules quotations and summing up the consequences of pro and con votes.
===
All in all, fantastic, great job!

dirhaval
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Re: Please give us your feedback - 2018 Annual Rules Vote

Post by dirhaval » Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:25 pm

This was a wonderful experience. Thank you for taking this time give us a vote.
Now my duty is to agree, accept, and encourage the playing of the voting results, which I am happy to as a Dwarf in the Glittering Caves.
I expect to play with the new changes, especially those I originally disagreed, to understand better the other view point. Playing got us here and the game is better because of it. Now, the new changes will make the game better.

My suggestions:
1. Consider a longer time to vote or change the period to allow those on extended vacations to vote...6 weeks?
2. Consider to end the voting before a major tournament, not just afterwards, to have an opportunity how possible changes/unchanges had on the tournament.
3. Auto-submit submissions with less than 70% "yes" votes. Maybe in a year opinions may change or those absent from the forum for years have return.
[I viewed the registered voters' profiles of those with a few forum posts. Many of those profiles are those that have not posted for several years. There might be of those out there that missed this vote. They return next year to vote.]

If this is the will of the Council.

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Theo
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Re: Please give us your feedback - 2018 Annual Rules Vote

Post by Theo » Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:57 am

The structure of ballot items 35(A&B) was clever but not ideal. Three-way voting is provably impossible to make fair under reasonable definitions of fairness. Not that I doubt that either Item MP or Misc MP individually would have won in a head-to-head vote with Kill MP with the participating voters, but the structure chosen may be expected to bias 35A toward YES. If the ROC was not already aware of this, I wanted to bring it up.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Re: Please give us your feedback - 2018 Annual Rules Vote

Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:37 pm

Can you be more specific on what potential bias this solution implied? Do you mean to say that the mere fact there is a 35B suggests that most people will (and therefore should) vote YES on 35A? Perhaps. Still, I have faith in the autonomous mind of the voters.
And more importantly, would you not agree that a NO voter should still have a say in the possible outcome of a YES, or do you consider that insignificant? We debated a 4-way voting, but thought this was actually more clear.

@dirhaval. Good suggestions!
1. taking more time, in my opinion, would be benificial, even though sometimes (as we all know) if there's no pressure we forget about it.
2. there will always be a next tournament to test the outcome, the time-frame is not that important. It might even be an idea to have a tournament while the voting process is going on, so you get more people engaged and there's room for testing.
3. at least the ROC can consider those 50-50 items for the next ARV, I wouldn't go as far as making it automatic. If it's an issue that really keeps the community busy, somebody will bring it up no doubt.
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.

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Theo
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Re: Please give us your feedback - 2018 Annual Rules Vote

Post by Theo » Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:04 am

One unrealistic but illustrative example:

Since these are mutually exclusive outcomes,
Suppose people only value their favorite of the three possible outcomes; they are indifferent about either of their non-preferences.
Suppose the population is split in their preferences as: 3/7 Kill, 2/7 Item, 2/7 Misc.

With your setup, the vote will be a tossup in 35B between the equally-preferred Item or Misc because the two together are incentivized to overcome the 35A Kill vote, 4/7 to 3/7.
If instead you made the 35A vote for/against either of the other two options (say Item), and then had 35B decide between Kill and Misc, Kill would definitely win. 35A would be against Item 5/7 to 2/7, then Kill would win 35B at a 3/2 ratio (if the Item voters abstained, or 4/3 if they voted randomly).

For more fun, see wikipedia's entry on Arrow's Impossibility Theorem. I'm at least aware of non-deterministic systems that can circumvent Arrow's theorem, but most people don't like non-deterministic systems for other reasons. :roll:
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.

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rezwits
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Re: Please give us your feedback - 2018 Annual Rules Vote

Post by rezwits » Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:05 pm

The Annual rules vote seems to be a glaring success!

The whole process was effortless considering the 40+ items.

I was very impressed by the phpBB forum software, having the features to support this, and that you guys were able to take advantage of it all.

100% Professional for sure.

I think most of the votes were just confirmations mainly, but in general as a dry run, to test the "RUNNING" of the voting process, and getting thing setup for an annual session, this is going to be great.

I could see in the future "addendum" items getting up there in count, but in the end the game will get cleaned up because of this work...

👍🏻 👍🏻 👍🏻 👍🏻 👍🏻

Keep up the good work!
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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