Gavin's Thoughts

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the Jabberwock
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Gavin's Thoughts

Post by the Jabberwock » Tue Sep 13, 2016 7:51 pm

Hello friends,

I feel that a new CoE is necessary for the oversight of meccg leading into the future. I believe each council member should have an area of interest which he is passionate about. If each member works on something which interests him, it will help to prevent members from dropping off and the council falling dormant again.
For some members, this will mean working on event organizing (LURE, Worlds, other tournaments and gatherings, etc.) For other members, this might mean developing and supporting Dream Cards. For still other members, something else entirely.
For me personally, I am interested in items which I feel will benefit and encourage newcomers to join this great game and community. Specifically, my passion is for addressing the rules quagmire which new players get stuck in, and also for taking web based initiatives which support meccg.

As such, my personal agenda items for the new council are:

RULES:

1) Poll the community to find out which current rules are unclear, contradictory, and/or otherwise causing conflict with the game. Once this data is obtained, have the council vote on whether or not to make errata adressing such rules.

2) Complete some form of a universal rules document which is easy to use and reference during game play (thanks to Bandobras for starting this effort!) This will greatly help in encouraging newcomers to take interest in this great game without having to battle all of the confusion surrounding the rules from the get-go. This document will be maintained and kept up to date.

WEBSITE:

1) Update and maintain a current web page which will be full of resources for new and old players alike. A central, online hub for all meccg activity which will be easy to find for those seeking out meccg online.

2) Create an online (easily viewable to casual surfers) graphic spoiler of all of the cards in meccg. This will be great as a way to create interest for newcomers as well as a handy online reference for all.

3) Maintain an updated textual spoiler document which contains all cards in written format accompanied by their most current errata.

I am volunteering to be a part of this effort going forward and I have the passion and vision to contribute. I expect progress to be slow and not take place overnight, but I feel slow and steady progress is much better than no progress. I believe that if a new council is not elected with members who wish to actively oversee and support meccg, then the game will slowly diminish and depart in the future.

Thanks to all for your consideraton.

Warmest Regards,

Gavin

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kober
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Re: What's this?

Post by kober » Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:01 pm

the Jabberwock wrote:As such, my personal agenda items for the new council [...]
You've got my vote :)

Just a quick commentary on your proposals:

Rules #1: The best place to start would be UEP - have it voted on, make it official.
Rules #2: Mr. Took did a great work with his URD. To me, the greatest value of the doc is all the errata and rullings being gathered in one place. All it needs is a little bit of ironing-out: some self-contraditions eliminated, some issues clarified, some editing work to make it easier to read and search through.
Website: A great example of what could be done is lotrtcgwiki.com - look no further.

Logain
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Re: What's this?

Post by Logain » Wed Sep 14, 2016 7:20 am

Hello

I'm in for a big rules cleaning. The game design was about travelling and facing dangers, but now it is avoided with so many cards that simply untap characters during move phase, or for the worse ones during the site phase which also make players go for squatting decks. Many cards (like We Have Come To Kill) do not have the effect they were intended for, because of rules lawyers winning against game design, others are bad designs. Even kill points make creatures strategies dormant, players prefer to put detainment creatures in their decks. The game changed a lot, and not for the best i feel.

We can indeed vote for the work that has been done by some here, or even further go into a second edition. This is the choice i made, and to avoid mixing with the game i prepare a First Age setting. I need playtesters to discuss some options i took, to finish the design, and to play. Rules and cards are on svn.

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the Jabberwock
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Re: What's this?

Post by the Jabberwock » Wed Sep 14, 2016 6:51 pm

kober wrote:
the Jabberwock wrote:As such, my personal agenda items for the new council [...]
You've got my vote :)

Just a quick commentary on your proposals:

Rules #1: The best place to start would be UEP - have it voted on, make it official.
Rules #2: Mr. Took did a great work with his URD. To me, the greatest value of the doc is all the errata and rullings being gathered in one place. All it needs is a little bit of ironing-out: some self-contraditions eliminated, some issues clarified, some editing work to make it easier to read and search through.
Website: A great example of what could be done is lotrtcgwiki.com - look no further.
Hi Kober,

Thanks for your support and for sharing your thoughts! =)

At a glance, the web link you posted looks nice. I will take a deeper look at it later.

Also, what is UEP?

Best,

Gavin

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the Jabberwock
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Re: What's this?

Post by the Jabberwock » Wed Sep 14, 2016 7:07 pm

Logain wrote:Hello

I'm in for a big rules cleaning. The game design was about travelling and facing dangers, but now it is avoided with so many cards that simply untap characters during move phase, or for the worse ones during the site phase which also make players go for squatting decks. Many cards (like We Have Come To Kill) do not have the effect they were intended for, because of rules lawyers winning against game design, others are bad designs. Even kill points make creatures strategies dormant, players prefer to put detainment creatures in their decks. The game changed a lot, and not for the best i feel.

We can indeed vote for the work that has been done by some here, or even further go into a second edition. This is the choice i made, and to avoid mixing with the game i prepare a First Age setting. I need playtesters to discuss some options i took, to finish the design, and to play. Rules and cards are on svn.
Hi Logain,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! While I agree with some of your sentiments, I believe that "a big rules cleaning" is somewhat of a delicate issue. Personally, I believe in polling the community to find out what specific rules are frustrating and/or unclear and then voting to clean them up as necessary. Some rules modifications can indeed be made to help close loopholes and make the game more enjoyable, however, it sounds like you may be referring to a complete re-write of the game? That is a project which has been started by others and I certainly support it as an alternate format for playing. That said, a complete re-write is outside the scope of my agenda and what I personally am looking to see accomplished. In my opinion, for any rules changes to be effective, they need to be respected by the large communities who actively play. By completely re-writing the game (while a worthwhile effort on its own as an alternate format), I feel we would lose touch with the community as a whole. Fragmentation will not help our cause.

Respectfully,

Gavin

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kober
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Re: What's this?

Post by kober » Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:21 am

the Jabberwock wrote:Also, what is UEP?
UEP stands for Unofficial Errata Proposal. There was an attempt to move its cadaver to this forum, which failed, although the concept was adopted by DC folks who incorporated UEP into DC rules.

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the Jabberwock
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Re: What's this?

Post by the Jabberwock » Fri Sep 16, 2016 6:20 am

kober wrote:
the Jabberwock wrote:Also, what is UEP?
UEP stands for Unofficial Errata Proposal. There was an attempt to move its cadaver to this forum, which failed, although the concept was adopted by DC folks who incorporated UEP into DC rules.
Thanks for the info Kober!

While I of course cannot guarantee its passage, I promise that if elected to the council I will have these rule amendments given consideration and reviewed and then put up for a vote as appropriate.

Warm Regards,

Gavin

panotxa
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Re: Gavin's Thoughts

Post by panotxa » Mon Sep 26, 2016 6:31 am

Hi folks,

To my mind, fixing some rules and getting official clarifications/interpretations is what I want the most from the new CoE to do. Besides the inactivity of the last years, I like the way things have been done until now, trying to keep ICE controlled chaos but fixing things little by little (one example of this is when CoE ruled about automatic attacks and cards like ruse, etc. on 2012).

I don’t like the idea of re-writing the rules because we can lose the game’s unique flavor in the way, but having an updated Universal Rules doc and fixing some things will improve the game, helping most of the current players and making things attractive for future ones.

On this matter, maybe a good beginning would be talking with Bandobras Took and Konrad Klar, maybe the most active fellows in the rules forum section and creating a poll asking for the most overpowered cards in the game, because is a thing that everybody (despite their experience) can answer and may show evidence on what to fix.

I’ll root for you and for everybody who wants to do things this way.

Cheers,

Toni

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Re: Gavin's Thoughts

Post by thorondor » Mon Sep 26, 2016 6:53 pm

i agree with Toni.
i think a complete rewrite of the rules would end in a different game, maybe a better one, still different.

is see this complete rewrite done mostly in the Dream Card project. this already is a different game, and there are no boundaries to change things.
but that doesnt mean that MECCG (as we know it) doesnt need some sort of treatment. i am all in for clarifications and errata. i would very much like to see a strong NetRep team, that is addressing the flaws of the rules and of certain cards, and then fixing it. we already started to open the Official Errata list and added a few bits a few years ago. more of it is necessarry, and the COE needs to be the governing body (that means a functional homepage where players can find the official up to date Errata & Clarifications list.

another important task of the COE is maintaining a platform for MECCG players. we have the forum here (whic could need a little bit attention by an expert) and there is the Homepage, but this one is in need of a big overhaul.
also important: a public voice for MECCG. this sort of Newsletter i am sending out now and then is definately not enough. the COE deserves more, respectivly its own emailaddress and mail system (and i deserve less work, cause sending out these messages is always a nightmare ...)

then, i see the COE responsible for international Championship tournaments. at least if there is still demand of it by the players.
in a coule of days we are going to have Worlds in Switzerland. i dont think we will be 20 players. to call this a "big" tournament is justified by its tradition, definately not by the number of players attending. so maybe one day the COE decides that Worlds is a relic from the past and calls it quit. i dont think it would affect the MECCG community very much.
events like Lure, Les Havres Gris, Polish Nationals, Marc´s annual event in Barcelona will stay around, US players are meeting at the usual gaming conventions. thats robably more important and attrctivew to the MECCG community.

finally some thoughts about the COE itself: in the past we had elections each year, later biannually. but it wasnt a real election in the end: we had to ask (push, convince) players to volunteer to become a COE member. the goal was to have 10 candidates for 9 seats, so that the facadery of an election could be held up. no wonder the COE fell dormant soon after. also, the invitation to vote went out to at least 2000 people, returning votes have been about 20-30 (the votes of the candidates included).
i would like to propose some drastic measures here: lets do away with all this voting stuff. those who are willing to be engaged for MECCG are welcome to do so. they can still call themselves COE. actually thats how it worked for the past few years anyway. in addition lets have a group of rules wizards, that form the NetRep team.

my 2 cents for now ...

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Bandobras Took
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Re: Gavin's Thoughts

Post by Bandobras Took » Mon Sep 26, 2016 10:05 pm

I'll add a slight footnote:

After Mikko, for want of a better expression, threw a fit about the URD, I had hoped that it would at least continue to be maintained and updated as flaws were found.

Unfortunately, giving the URD to the NetRep seems to mean that it has joined that vast number of things that have been relegated to the dust heap.

And I'll leave that there before the NetRep discussion board gets hidden again.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly.

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Re: Gavin's Thoughts

Post by thedarkness » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:01 pm

Hello,

I am new here, but I have a couple of requests for the individuals that work here to keep the game alive.

1. A comprehensive YouTube video on the basics of the game could potentially attract new players.
2. Searchable card database with updated errata for all cards.
3. Entry level deck listings so that new players can engage with the game at a beginner level.

Thank you!

George
“The world is indeed full of peril and in it there are many dark places.” - LOTR

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the Jabberwock
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Re: Gavin's Thoughts

Post by the Jabberwock » Sun Dec 11, 2016 6:27 am

George,

Welcome and thanks for posting!

1. Excellent idea! I will add this to my list.

2. Very important I agree and something already on my agenda list.

3. I believe Wolfgang is currently working on this but I will double check.

All are excellent ideas! Thanks for sharing!

Regards,

Gavin


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

thorondor
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Re: Gavin's Thoughts

Post by thorondor » Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:27 pm

the Jabberwock wrote:
3. I believe Wolfgang is currently working on this but I will double check.
In fact, it´s already available here:
http://www.councilofelrond.org/forum/vi ... inner+deck

i have changed the decks a little bit since then (and probably will do so again). i can send an updated list per email, just ask. but then, everybody using the decks is free to make changes as the see fit.

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Re: Gavin's Thoughts

Post by thedarkness » Mon Dec 12, 2016 12:02 am

thorondor wrote:
the Jabberwock wrote:
3. I believe Wolfgang is currently working on this but I will double check.
In fact, it´s already available here:
http://www.councilofelrond.org/forum/vi ... inner+deck

i have changed the decks a little bit since then (and probably will do so again). i can send an updated list per email, just ask. but then, everybody using the decks is free to make changes as the see fit.
Thank you, I'll check it out.
“The world is indeed full of peril and in it there are many dark places.” - LOTR

Logain
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Re: Gavin's Thoughts

Post by Logain » Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:32 am

the Jabberwock wrote:
Logain wrote:Hello
I'm in for a big rules cleaning. ...
To avoid mixing with the game i prepare a First Age setting.
... I believe that "a big rules cleaning" is somewhat of a delicate issue. Personally, I believe in polling the community...
it sounds like you may be referring to a complete re-write of the game? ... I certainly support it as an alternate format for playing.
That said, a complete re-write is outside the scope of my agenda
Fragmentation will not help our cause.
My message was confusing i see.
I was talking about rules cleaning for the game as we know it, not new rules. I agree with community polling, of course.
But i also mentionned that the new rules showed there were many possibilities to improve the game that the CoE could use.
I'm personnaly making new rules for a side game - alternative format (and that's the reason i chose First age setting for it), not to replace the existing ones. Community is too small for that.

Fragmentation is howewer what i see when at Lure, we have so many game formats ^^ . I think it makes the game rich.

A great many years ago, i was elected and wanted to push the game forward, promoting erratas and dream cards.
The Council didn't like my position and was conservative, so i left (and stopped playing at the same time).
I came back to the game some years ago, thanks to the dream card stream, and was elected again (thanks to all who voted for me, and to those that will vote for me in the future ^^).

Only problem is that we took no group decision. We should have a meeting at least each year, at least through chat, and why not at Lure if many are present. Make collective propositions to the board here (community polling) and for that comprehensive simple rule document.

My point of view is that rules lawyers broke the intent of the game, the responsability being ICE's lack of precisions on cards.
For example, the main aspect of the game (and theme) is traveling and avoid being tapped during the site phase to play cards.
We have come to kill & A chance meeting were supposed to allow the play of a character outside of his home site during the organization phase, which was replaced by a "smart" way to play the new character and a card during the site phase. That needs errata. Maybe Cram should need one also, was it really designed to allow play of cards during the site phase ?

I've read the different attempts at new rules, and i'm writing one myself, as an alternative game format, based on Ice's second version of the game. Objectives : simpler, faster, more theme. You can find alpha version on gccg,\GCCG\metw\development\mecg\MEFA
Important update will take place during winter holidays (we had a physical playtesting session in Nantes).
At the moment my objective is not to replace the existing rules, rather just make an alternative game in the first age setting, and playtest.

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